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Post by nordicyouth on Jun 2, 2004 11:12:42 GMT -5
Plus, one must consider that eugenics can be instrumental in creating a productive population that makes a country more competitive in this capitalist world of ours.
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Post by Vitor on Jun 2, 2004 14:26:08 GMT -5
Please see the film:
Seabiscuit...(A true history)
Against all odds, a better horse even if he was worse on the paper!
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Post by Agrippa on Jun 2, 2004 16:17:30 GMT -5
Please see the film: Seabiscuit...(A true history) Against all odds, a better horse even if he was worse on the paper! Maybe next time you come up with Forrest Gump. If it would make the state or population just more competitive in the capitalist system it wouldnt be enough. In fact good features make a population more competitive in every discipline with small and for the further development unimportant exception like extreme malnutrition-lowest energy levels.
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Post by Ptolemy on Jun 29, 2004 15:33:23 GMT -5
I think eugenics should be practiced at a personal level, but not at the state level.
Is it really so wrong for a couple to go in for genetic counseling and make a decision based on that. Actually, I would encourage that.
If a couple knew they would give birth to a child with downs syndrome, and decided to abort, isn't that essentially personal eugenics??
Is that wrong??
I don't think the state should have a say in it though.
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Sandwich
Full Member
La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
Posts: 208
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Post by Sandwich on Jun 29, 2004 18:20:03 GMT -5
The National Socialist ideology was based on the idea of the Big Lie. Leaders did not owe anything to those they led – not to tell them the truth and not to act in their interests. The need to tell the truth was for the weak; the strong should take what they want and ensure their own survival, if necessary at the expense of the weak.
This ideology was put to the test by the German people. Those who chose it were defeated utterly, the only test that matters to the strong. They died in the mud and the cold in their millions, their cities were burned and their women raped. Their land was torn apart and given to the domination of foreign soldiers for generations. Their memory is a source of shame to their children. The world spits on their grave.
Since that time we have Europe – the Europe built by the social democratic tradition of organized labour, popular democracy and representative government that the National Socialists tried to destroy. There has been no war. People have grown taller, more intelligent and better looking, healthier and stronger. Their teeth do not decay from poor food, their lungs do not rot from coaldust, they have more time to travel and to learn. Schooling is not the privilege of the rich. Sports performances are at a higher level than ever before. All this without allowing the few to choose for the many so important a thing as who should have children, one of the essential sources of human happiness and fulfilment.
German Shepherds? I love them, grew up with one. They limp and often live in pain due to hip dysplasia. We did that to them by setting an artificial standard of what is beautiful.
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Post by captainusa1 on Jun 30, 2004 0:09:46 GMT -5
Bravo, Sandwich! That was an outstanding post. Your post is supported by emotional and historical truths that can't be denied. I think that applying eugenics to humans would be like trying to rope a tornado.
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Post by One Humanity on Jun 30, 2004 1:57:22 GMT -5
I tend to agree generally, but the sentence with 'spitting on their grave' is frivolous/unmature. You surely never met my grandfather for example and never experienced his feelings. The need to tell the truth was for the weak; the strong should take what they want and ensure their own survival, if necessary at the expense of the weak. That is simplified Darwinism, not really correct that way. But you're right: in German, most people don't associate Darwin with 'survival of the fittest', but 'survival of the strongest', what was originally a sophist's theory.
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Sandwich
Full Member
La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
Posts: 208
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Post by Sandwich on Jun 30, 2004 2:48:43 GMT -5
The image of Thrasymachus the Galapagos Turtle is irresistable. He could almost become the mascot of this forum. (And by the way I was talking of a destiny, not about my personal feelings towards individuals which are, as you might imagine, a little more complex. )
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Post by One Humanity on Jun 30, 2004 20:10:40 GMT -5
Why is he exactly set to be a turtle?
- - -
I keep on saying that if people spit on each other permanently, there will never be peace.
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Sandwich
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La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
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Post by Sandwich on Jun 30, 2004 21:29:10 GMT -5
You misread me - I am a great admirer of the Bundesrepublik, and have no quarrel at all with the German people.
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Post by One Humanity on Jun 30, 2004 21:50:25 GMT -5
I wondered about the link of the sophist with a Turtle. Not important anyway.
The Bundesrepublik has it's problems too...
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Post by Cerdic on Jul 1, 2004 6:57:00 GMT -5
What advantage is there in being tall and strong when, physically, the most the majority of people in Europe and N America have to do is press the key on a computer?
Being tall and strong hasn't been a selective advantage, I say nothing of sexual selection, since the last mammoth hit the dust.
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Post by Agrippa on Jul 1, 2004 8:50:39 GMT -5
What advantage is there in being tall and strong when, physically, the most the majority of people in Europe and N America have to do is press the key on a computer? A healthy body and spirit is necessary to have a real healthy and efficient collective. What you are speaking about is decadence and degeneration. Furthermore if your house is burning, if you have to fight, to flee, to do something with your hands, you still need a strong and healthy body. If man would degenerate physically more and more, and would just rely on technology, it would mean to form a society sicker than the liberalcapitalistic a la USA we have today. Man is an intelligent animal, but his full potential he has just with his body of a effective generalist. Sexual selection is not the only thing, in fact, sexual selection CAN (usually does not) lead into a wrong direction.
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Post by Cerdic on Jul 1, 2004 9:10:18 GMT -5
A healthy body and spirit is necessary to have a real healthy and efficient collective. What you are speaking about is decadence and degeneration. Furthermore if your house is burning, if you have to fight, to flee, to do something with your hands, you still need a strong and healthy body. If man would degenerate physically more and more, and would just rely on technology, it would mean to form a society sicker than the liberalcapitalistic a la USA we have today. Man is an intelligent animal, but his full potential he has just with his body of a effective generalist. Sexual selection is not the only thing, in fact, sexual selection CAN (usually does not) lead into a wrong direction. You can be perfectly healthy without being tall, or particularly strong. Being bright is a selective advantage these days, good jobs more pay - the ability to get what you want though communication. Being able to throw a spear with huge force isn't.
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Sandwich
Full Member
La pens?e d'un homme est avant tout sa nostalgie
Posts: 208
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Post by Sandwich on Jul 1, 2004 17:16:59 GMT -5
People seem to be misunderstanding how selection pressure works. You can be as brilliant and well paid as you like - but your genes don't care about your paycheck. At the moment, you might even say that earning a high income is a sign of low breeding success We need a Lex Julia / Lex Papia Poppaea or we're screwed. Something acceptable to modern sensibilities of course, but which rewards middle class women for having more children. I would support pegging these rewards to demonstrated earning power. This would be heresy to the left, of course. At the moment, the factors that seem associated with the greatest success in the genetic competition are low level of education and Islam. Not precisely causal but ... France has taken some steps to halt declining national population, but even in France this sensible policy is being turned into a form of welfarism, with possible distorting effects. www.sacredchoices.org/News_Tracker/fewer_births_make_old_Europe_fear_for_future.htmThis complicated PDF details other factors bearing on reproductive choices. As you will see, French policies do work, and the southern European countries face a daunting problem. iserwww.essex.ac.uk/activities/conferences/epunet-2003/docs/pdf/papers/pronzato.pdf
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