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Post by Dienekes on Dec 9, 2003 1:46:34 GMT -5
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Dean
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Truth Before Ego
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Post by Dean on Dec 9, 2003 9:08:16 GMT -5
My Y DNA profile almost exactly matches the putative YCC classification of Haplogroup I1b--found in great numbers in or near Croatia. Looking at the Semino study, Haplogroup I frequency is extremely high among the Croatian group, and its frequency drops signigicantly in Albanians and more significantly in Greeks. Haplogroup I has an almost inverse relationship with Haplogroup J, which is frequent in Greeks and Albanians and lessens greatly in Croatians. Macedonians are interesting in that they have nearly even proportions of Eu4, Eu7 (Haplogroup I) and Eu9 (Haplogroup J), like a boundary between Eu7 and Eu9. Since I1b is common in the Balkans, it's an open question when this type arrived in Greece, especially in southern Greece. It's possible that this group is associated with the Arvanites, Greek people with an Albanian connection, who I read or heard somewhere came to the Peloponnese, settled around Argos and fought on the Greek side in the War of Independence.
Another scenario is that this haplogroup was brought to southern Greece by Vlachs. I only recently learned that Vlachs are an ethnic group. I used to think that Vlach was a derogatory term meaning peasant, or hick or uncultured one--this is the way Greeks I know use the word--"vlahos". The surname Vlahos is relatively common among Greeks I've encountered, and there are place names in the Peloponnese with Vlach in them. As seen via the Human Races Calculator, Romanians have high frequency of Haplogroup 2, to which I1b belongs--same with Bulgarians. Anyway, some relatives on my father's side are/were light-skinned and light-haired, while others are or were olive-skinned and dark-haired, resembling modern Anatolians or southwest Asians. I have lightish hair and olive skin. I think I remember reading or hearing about a group called "Arvanitovlahoi".
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Praetor
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Graecus in Fennia
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Post by Praetor on Dec 11, 2003 17:31:13 GMT -5
There is historic evidence of numerous early slavic settlers in mountainous Arcadia,that eventually were hellinized.Perhaps there lies the answer for the I1b question. and perhaps that explains the significant blondism (for greek standards) found in many branches of my family(I have roots there that can be traced in the mid 1700's).Of course until anything else is proven,I am 100% Greek from all aspects. ;D
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Dean
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Post by Dean on Dec 11, 2003 19:30:27 GMT -5
Perhaps there lies the answer for the I1b question. and perhaps that explains the significant blondism (for greek standards) found in many branches of my family(I have roots there that can be traced in the mid 1700's). Same with my family. There are also many olive-skinned Mediterraneans in and from Arcadia. One of my in-laws said that his family is originally from Anatolia, and they're from my father's neighboring village, Ayio Vasili. Because all people in Arcadia speak Greek and have spoken Greek for centuries--by various vague and few historical accounts--the political powers of the day, i.e. the Byzantine Empire, must have taken invasions seriously and rehellenized Greece. Slavic is still spoken in areas where Slavs dominated--this could be no accident. Greek people to me are still under-studied from a genetic standpoint. I am awaiting the results of my autosomal DNA test to look at racial percentages: Mongoloid, Negroid and Caucasoid. I'm typical of a Greek from around Tripoli, Arcadia. According to current study, haplogroup I has been in the Balkans for a long time. By looking at the Semino et al. study, it almost seems too clear that migration patterns in Europe that are theorized to have occured many centuries ago appear obvious and well-defined. The Semino study is called "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective."
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Post by Artemidoros on Dec 11, 2003 20:25:10 GMT -5
The Slavs in the Peloponnese settled mainly on mount Taygetus but probably not only there. They had previously occupied the Laconian plain which was left depopulated after the defeat of the Slavs and their withdrawal to Taygetus. Some of the original inhabitants returned to Laconia along with settlers, many of whom were Armenians. It was actually an Armenian missionary, St Nicon o Metanoeite that has been credited with Christianising the Peloponnese Slavs. Once they had been Christianised it was a matter of time before they mixed with the Greek population, leaving only placenames and their genes as their lasting legacy.
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Dean
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Post by Dean on Dec 14, 2003 0:51:22 GMT -5
It would be interesting to do an anthropological study to compare Greeks from the center of Peloponnese to those of the Peloponnesian coastal areas, in particular the Maniates and Tsakonian-speaking Greeks from the Peloponnesian east coast area, who in dwindling numbers speak an ancient Doric Greek dialect--which to me is like a foreign language. It's been written that some Maniates consider themselves to be the direct descendants of the ancient Spartans. I've seen pictures of Maniatisses who to me look like the eternal Greek--old black-clad widows with dark weather-beaten faces, stern eyes and mustaches. They look like Charon himself. It's been written that Maniates migrated to extreme southern Peloponnese from around Sparta/Taygetus to escape the invading Slavic-speakers. There's an author, Dr. Georgios Nakratsas, who criticizes Greek nationalism in a book called "The Hellenocentric Egomania of the Modern Greek Society", who's of the opinion that Greeks are mostly descendants of post-Roman-Empire invaders. I haven't read the book, nor do I care to, but he states that descendants of ancient Greeks are Tsakones and maybe Greeks near Argos and in Patra. I can't imagine his source(s) for this information--these can't be any that we who post here follow.
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Praetor
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Graecus in Fennia
Posts: 246
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Post by Praetor on Dec 14, 2003 16:23:07 GMT -5
I have never heard of Nakratsas guy but this theory of modern Greeks being unrelated to ancients and other Fallmerayer-like bullshit have already being refuted historically since the 19th century (thanks to Paparigopoulos) and biologically thanks to modern technology.
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 14, 2003 18:03:13 GMT -5
It would be interesting to do an anthropological study to compare Greeks from the center of Peloponnese to those of the Peloponnesian coastal areas, in particular the Maniates and Tsakonian-speaking Greeks from the Peloponnesian east coast area, who in dwindling numbers speak an ancient Doric Greek dialect ... I haven't read the book, nor do I care to, but he states that descendants of ancient Greeks are Tsakones and maybe Greeks near Argos and in Patra. I can't imagine his source(s) for this information--these can't be any that we who post here follow. Th. Pitsios has studied the population of the Peloponnese anthropologically. His work appeared in German and Greek and I haven't been able to read it. anthrop.med.uoa.gr/English/tpitsios.htmOn a related note, anthropological research in Greece is ongoing. Recently the International Congress of Anthropology was held in Greece which included several presentations of interest to Greeks. There is a good deal of literature on Greek physical anthropology written in Greek which should be available in Greek libraries. anthrop.med.uoa.gr/English/international_congress.htm
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Post by Gus Morea on Dec 14, 2003 21:04:47 GMT -5
My family is from Lakonia, and I've been there many times. Further, I've met hundreds of people from around that area. As far as blonde people go, the fairest individuals almost always look like this guy: He is from Sparta. I've also seen completely Hallstat- and Cro-Magnon-looking types.
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Dean
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Post by Dean on Dec 16, 2003 9:06:01 GMT -5
As far as blonde people go, the fairest individuals almost always look like this guy: He is from Sparta. I've also seen completely Hallstat- and Cro-Magnon-looking types. This guy looks Mediterranean. To me he looks like he could pass for Greek, Albanian or French. Up in Arcadia there is a male anthropological type that is usually light-pigmented and huge-headed--long/broad head, long face and total baldness. The back of the head is flat. The ear also has a particular shape. Whenever I see someone who fits this description (very rarely), I correctly guess this person's ethnicity. This type of person isn't the gracile Mediterranean. This type of person also doesn't look like many other types of people that I see, and I live in a cosmopolitan area.
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Post by AWAR on Dec 19, 2003 23:26:15 GMT -5
When I was in Greece, I saw a policeman who was 100% Nordic.
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Post by rusalka on Dec 20, 2003 0:00:16 GMT -5
When I was in Greece, I saw a policeman who was 100% Nordic. I hope he was not a race mixer! Sorry, couldn't help it. Ahhh, my worst nightmares! -AWAR, Dodona administration ;D
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Post by bigalspal on Dec 7, 2005 20:54:19 GMT -5
Dienekes, I was wondering if you could answer a few questions? How do you think J2 came to be in the UK? Do you think it was do more to Neolithic expansion or Roman invasion? Maybe middle eastern traders? J2 seem not to have been a big influence on the gene population in general. How big was the influx of this haplogroup? Did they intermarry or migrate back to the Middle East & southeast Europe? Can you please explain without posting a link for me to read? I'm not as versed in genetics & the papers don't really help me to understand. Thanks, Cindy
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Post by Dienekes on Dec 8, 2005 5:05:55 GMT -5
Dienekes, I was wondering if you could answer a few questions? How do you think J2 came to be in the UK? It could have gotten there in any number of ways. We can't say for sure whether or not J2 reached as far as Britain during the Neolithic expansion, because J2 occurs at such low frequency in Britain that it could just have arrived later. The Romans are probably a good candidate, but it is not exactly clear how much of a demographic impact they had in Britain. Moreover, the "Romans" in Britain were not necessarily of Italian or Mediterranean origin. Also, J2 is found at non-trivial frequencies in continental Germanic groups, which can also have contributed this to Britain. And, of course, J2 could also be of Jewish or later Mediterranean origin; this is less likely if one's ancestors were not from major cities where foreigners usually settled.
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Post by bigalspal on Dec 8, 2005 13:37:42 GMT -5
Dienekes, Thanks so much for your reply. My paternal haplogroup is SNP'd as J2. My father's family has been in the southern US for over 200 hundred years. After looking at alot of surname projects at FTDNA, I've concluded that we are a pretty rare occurance. Most seem to be R1b's & I's. At least the ones from this area of the country. My husband is R1b. I have had the 25 marker YDNA test run. I've also had tests run on markers 461 & 462. They both are 11. I was told that we could narrow it down to it not being J2e. Which, as you know, is Balkan ancestry. So, if we are not Balkan, that leaves Iran & Iraq, Turkey, Greece & Italy, right? I'm still trying to find out where my paternal ancestor was living before he came to America. There are alot of people with German ancestry in our surname project, but we have not matched them. Not yet anyway. My paternal family insists we are Irish, but apparently not native Irish! Anyway, this mystery is consuming me! I hope to test additional markers after Christmas. Thanks, Cindy
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