Classify Polish people

[Agrippa]

Most are Nordid, Nordid-Baltid, Nordid-Norid, some are Baltid and Alpinoid, Pontid mainly in mixture.
Quite impressive selection partly.

[quarryman]

henerte, corda and Polako: You don’t have to be rude. I have no intention to provoke, but I just don’t agree that the Nordid element is as strong in Poland than in coutries like Germany, Sweden and Latvia. Of course, taking random photos from the net as I did don’t give a correct understanding on statistical figures. It’s just that the differences are so obvoius to me, having spent many years in different parts of central Europe, including Poland and Germany. But looking at statistics instead, I think that a 3,5 cm difference in average body height is quite a lot. The difference has not changed radically during the last century. Eighty years ago, the difference between the Polish and German average was about 4 cm. However, it’s very probable that the present figures for Poland are increasing faster than those of Germany due to changes in life-style. It’s harder to find statistical figures on build, but it’s interesting that both Poland and Germany count to the European countries that have the highest body mass index (just after Great Britain) with figures around 27 for men. Of course this will tell us more about nutrition than genetics. The cephalic index average used to differ between about 80 for Germans and slightly over 82 for Poles, but I admit that these numbers can be obsolete. Since the figures for most parts of central Europe have increased over the last millennium, I don’t find it remarkable that there are reports from Poland and other countries that point in a different direction for the younger generations. Anthropological features differ over time, and the direction can of course change.

corda: I am well aware of the differences between different Europid sub-types, but it’s a fact that the both Kashubian guys’ heads look similar in breadth and the “Baltid” example seems to have a longer head. In fact, the “Nordid” one seems slightly Dinaricized to me.

Glenlivet: I agree that there are anthropologists with a more profound scientific understanding than Lundman. But he really has a point in analyzing the geographical differences in skull heights. And the Nordid indication in the north of present-day Poland in von Eickstedt’s and Lundman’s maps refer to the German speaking population living in that area before WWII with one exception – the lower Vistula valley (roughly the region of Kujawy) in von Eickstedts map.

[wendland]

There are various "typical Polish" looks, one is the more nordic tall and blond(ish), another is dark, often there are sharp features, hook noses, though sometimes snub noses. Very common are light blue eyes, as opposed to dark blue eyes. Also uncommon are small heads-- small in proportion to body, in fact there seems to be a tendency to big heads, relatively large in proportion to body. This is independent of whether the head is brachycephalic or dolichocephalic. Also, the pattern of fattness (if fat): apple shapes, barrel stomachs, not much of the big hipped and wide assed pear shape more common in Britain and the US. This, of course, is personal observation-- totally unscientific!

[Polako]

quarryman said:

henerte, corda and Polako: You don’t have to be rude. I have no intention to provoke, but I just don’t agree that the Nordid element is as strong in Poland than in coutries like Germany, Sweden and Latvia. Of course, taking random photos from the net as I did don’t give a correct understanding on statistical figures. It’s just that the differences are so obvoius to me, having spent many years in different parts of central Europe, including Poland and Germany. But looking at statistics instead, I think that a 3,5 cm difference in average body height is quite a lot. The difference has not changed radically during the last century. Eighty years ago, the difference between the Polish and German average was about 4 cm. However, it’s very probable that the present figures for Poland are increasing faster than those of Germany due to changes in life-style. It’s harder to find statistical figures on build, but it’s interesting that both Poland and Germany count to the European countries that have the highest body mass index (just after Great Britain) with figures around 27 for men. Of course this will tell us more about nutrition than genetics. The cephalic index average used to differ between about 80 for Germans and slightly over 82 for Poles, but I admit that these numbers can be obsolete. Since the figures for most parts of central Europe have increased over the last millennium, I don’t find it remarkable that there are reports from Poland and other countries that point in a different direction for the younger generations. Anthropological features differ over time, and the direction can of course change.

corda: I am well aware of the differences between different Europid sub-types, but it’s a fact that the both Kashubian guys’ heads look similar in breadth and the “Baltid” example seems to have a longer head. In fact, the “Nordid” one seems slightly Dinaricized to me.

Glenlivet: I agree that there are anthropologists with a more profound scientific understanding than Lundman. But he really has a point in analyzing the geographical differences in skull heights. And the Nordid indication in the north of present-day Poland in von Eickstedt’s and Lundman’s maps refer to the German speaking population living in that area before WWII with one exception – the lower Vistula valley (roughly the region of Kujawy) in von Eickstedts map.

Yeah, well, I just had to say something when you posted a pic of people, most of whom weren't even Poles, and tried to prove to us all what Poles looked like.

[corda]

quarryman said:

henerte, corda and Polako: You don’t have to be rude. I have no intention to provoke, but I just don’t agree that the Nordid element is as strong in Poland than in coutries like Germany, Sweden and Latvia. Of course, taking random photos from the net as I did don’t give a correct understanding on statistical figures. It’s just that the differences are so obvoius to me, having spent many years in different parts of central Europe, including Poland and Germany. But looking at statistics instead, I think that a 3,5 cm difference in average body height is quite a lot. The difference has not changed radically during the last century. Eighty years ago, the difference between the Polish and German average was about 4 cm. However, it’s very probable that the present figures for Poland are increasing faster than those of Germany due to changes in life-style. It’s harder to find statistical figures on build, but it’s interesting that both Poland and Germany count to the European countries that have the highest body mass index (just after Great Britain) with figures around 27 for men. Of course this will tell us more about nutrition than genetics. The cephalic index average used to differ between about 80 for Germans and slightly over 82 for Poles, but I admit that these numbers can be obsolete. Since the figures for most parts of central Europe have increased over the last millennium, I don’t find it remarkable that there are reports from Poland and other countries that point in a different direction for the younger generations. Anthropological features differ over time, and the direction can of course change.

corda: I am well aware of the differences between different Europid sub-types, but it’s a fact that the both Kashubian guys’ heads look similar in breadth and the “Baltid” example seems to have a longer head. In fact, the “Nordid” one seems slightly Dinaricized to me.

Glenlivet: I agree that there are anthropologists with a more profound scientific understanding than Lundman. But he really has a point in analyzing the geographical differences in skull heights. And the Nordid indication in the north of present-day Poland in von Eickstedt’s and Lundman’s maps refer to the German speaking population living in that area before WWII with one exception – the lower Vistula valley (roughly the region of Kujawy) in von Eickstedts map.

V. Eickstedts worked mostly in the Nazi time so his works (early) are also far from objectiveness. Moreover he could not be aware of the reults of mass survey in Poland (of 300000 recruits) as well as late 50’s Soviet Anthropologic Expeditions so his data are mostly outdated. I have posted few times scanned work and maps of Gorny concerning the large scale survey- Wojskowe Zdjecie Antropologiczne.

You are wrong, statistically there was no difference between Germans and Poles concerning average CI.
Mean cephalic index taken on living males among Germans was 82,5
Source: Physical Anthropology, P. Stein, B.M. Rowe, 1974
The mean CI 80 which you mentioned was the exact number for Norway.
However according to German survey of ethnic Germans in S.Poland made during II ww, Germans were statically more brachycephalic and less Nordid then Poles and even Ukrainians. If you are interested I can post some info and references on Germanic/Alpine influence and role of German colonization in brachycephalization of C.Europe.

The difference in height could be also interpreted statically as 2,4% of totall height in 30s,
1,7% maybe in 80s and 0,6% percent nowadays (so 1cm) anticipating the maintained increase 2,1cm for Poles in the last decade 1995-2005.

[quarryman]

There is always a problem with anthropological works from the Nazi era since the subject was a means for creating a political agenda. In German works it was important to state the Germans as predominantly Nordid and to highlight the apparent links between ethnicity and race. It was of course of low interest to the Nazis that there were (and are) lots of Poles and even more Russians with Nordid features.

Still the difference between Germans and Poles is very obvoius to me. I obvoiusly have to find some modern anthropological data to verify my thesis.

I would be glad to read your references.

[henerte]

quarryman said:

henerte, corda and Polako: You don’t have to be rude.

I'm sorry for being rude.