Bunch of girls

[pierolapithecus]

seizure said:

Berlin was literally raped by Central Asian "Russian" soldiers, wasn't it? From little girls to old women. Would any signifigant number of preganancies have from this?

Once a year, aging Red Army veterans who fought in the battle for Berlin gather in that city’s suburb of Treptower Park, where some 5,000 of their comrades are buried. But as Jason Cowley of The Guardian reported, one local refers to it as "the site of the unknown rapist". No doubt there are others who share this sentiment: during that first year of Soviet occupation in 1945, more than 100.000 women in Berlin were raped. Combined with the German women caught in Pomerania, Silesia, and East Prussia during the mass exodus, the number of rape victims soars to roughly 2 million. Many of them subsequently committed suicide.

It is a subject not often broached in Germany and certainly not in the former Soviet Union. Many veterans of the Red Army have denied such activities as gang rape ever occurred. But with the passage of time, a harsh truth has come to light. And now, the whole story, with both German and Soviet perspectives, can be found in Antony Beevor’s The Fall of Berlin 1945. The author first got the idea of a Berlin book while writing his bestselling Stalingrad (Viking Press, 1998). It was during this turning point in 1943 that he read about a Soviet colonel who, in front of German pows, pointed at the surrounding rubble and screamed, "That’s how Berlin is going to look!". That promise could not have been more menacing.

Close to half a million Soviet soldiers were killed during the Stalingrad campaign from September 1942 to February 1943. It was the farthest east the Third Reich would ever extend. Once Soviet forces had encircled Field Marshal Paulus’s Sixth Army—an impressive feat that netted 90,000 German prisoners, including 22 generals—the Reich would forever be in retreat. It is this march, ultimately leading back to Berlin, that Beevor has chronicled. Along the way, he uncovers every possible type of atrocity, committed alike by the Nazis and the Soviets.

But it is the Soviet crimes that seem more disturbing. Perhaps this is because the evil deeds of the Nazi regime have been so well documented over the years. It comes to us as no surprise, for example, that the ss Einsatzgruppen units eradicated whole villages, forced captives to dig mass graves for themselves, and championed ethnic cleansing. (The Nazis murdered 1.5 million Soviet Jews in all.) But the crimes of the Red Army are not a subject of frequent discussion.

While it is widely known that the Soviets did their share of plundering, many will nonetheless be surprised by the extremely precise and often graphic accounts found in Beevor’s book. This is partly because such authors as John Erickson, who wrote the once-definitive Road to Berlin (Westview Press, 1983), and William L. Shirer, who wrote the still-revered Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (Simon & Schuster, 1960), did not have access to all the records in the Soviet archives. But with the collapse of communism, a treasure trove was unveiled — and Antony Beevor took advantage of it, poring through thousands of documents at the Russian State Military Archives and at the Central Archive of the Ministry of Defense. Hence, we learn now of what the Russians found at Wolf’s Lair and how the NKVD and SMERSH (Soviet counterintelligence) safeguarded Hitler’s skull and cremated his already partially cremated remains, flushing the ashes down a sewer in Magdeburg, Germany, in 1970. Beevor also interviewed the survivors, the veterans, the civilians, and former prisoners, and he read their letters from the front.

The end result is a book that reveals a contest of brutality — of which side can outdo the other in terms of killing, human suffering, and a wide variety of sadistic acts. It was a murderous ending to the bitter relationship between fascism and communism. Both sides fought viciously in the streets of Berlin in the 1920s. But together, they helped topple the Weimar Republic. In 1939, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union signed a nonaggression pact and found ways to aid each other in their imperial ambitions. Two years later, Hitler would break the agreement, severing the link between the two countries and their peoples — and setting the stage for a showdown between two of the most murderous personalities of the century.

From the moment the Germans invaded the USSR in June 1941, the enemies in the East were referred to as Untermenschen. It is this notion that Russians, Ukrainians, and others were subhuman that served as the underpinning or pretext for mass murder. Interestingly, the incidence of rape was not very high, since many Germans found the thought of sexual relations with subhumans to be wholly unacceptable. The only thing acceptable would be to kill them.

For soldiers in the Red Army, on the other hand, it was all about retribution: The Soviets were shocked when they found out what the Germans had been doing, particularly when they stumbled across Auschwitz and the other death camps. Then they learned that the Wehrmacht had been handing over Russian pows to the ss, whose punishments, according to Beevor, included running as live targets for shooting practice. "Another punishment was known as Achtung!. A Soviet prisoner was made to strip and kneel in the open. Handlers with attack dogs waited on either side. The moment he stopped shouting, Achtung! Achtung! the dogs were set on him." Equally disturbing were the horrendous medical experiments conducted by the Reich not just at Auschwitz (where 140 Polish boys were killed after being injected with carbolic acid), but also at the notorious Danzig Anatomical Institute, where soap and leather were made from corpses of Soviet citizens.

Soviet propagandist Ilya Ehrenburg pleaded with his comrades to "not count days; do not count miles. Count only the number of Germans you have killed. Kill the German — this is your mother’s prayer. Kill the German — this is the cry of your Russian earth. Do not waver. Do not let up. Kill." Beevor relates the story of "a young SS soldier forced to play a piano for his Russian captors. They made it clear in sign language that he would be executed the moment he stopped." The man played for 22 hours, after which he collapsed in tears. The Russians congratulated him and then shot him. It is also no surprise then that rape, under such frenzied circumstances, was allowed to happen. Even young women in the Red Army had no remorse. "Our soldiers behavior towards Germans, particularly German women, is absolutely correct!" exclaimed a young female soldier.



The sentiments were not limited to the frontoviki. Marshal Vasilevsky of the Third Belorussian Front said, "I don’t give a f—-. It is now time for our soldiers to issue their own justice." Which they did, rather generously. In some cases, a daughter, mother, and grandmother were raped one after the other. Many were raped multiple times. Meanwhile, other family members were rendered helpless. As one mother was being raped, her 13-year-old son tried to get the Russian off her. The soldier simply turned, shot the boy, and continued his raping. Beevor notes that veterans today will "admit to hearing of a few excesses, and then dismiss the subject as an inevitable result of war". Others are completely unrepentant. "Two million of our children were born [in Germany]," bragged one tank commander.

[Polako]

agrippa said:

polako said:

That book (something or rather...Mongolian realm) would be an interesting read...but I don't have access to it.

www.looksmarttrends.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200106/ai_n8977380#continue

You can read more of it here. Di(a) is a secure marker of Central Asian ancestry, though not all Mongoloids have it, which means that the percentage should be always taken higher, except we assume strong genetic drift in favour of the feature.

It is hypothesized that the mutation appeared in people living in eastern Central Asia during the last glacial maximum.

The other links I posted point to the same direction.

Well that's just a one oage summation,I was talking about reading the whole book.

Also, some of your lonks don't work for me.

[nockwasright]

Considered how the present scientific means to infer the ancient history of populations are dubious and contradictory, I think that non scientific plain observation common sense should still play a role in the debate, at least to cut off things like this:

NATIONALITY ADMIXTURE
Lapps 47.4%
Finns 30.0%
Lithuanians 23.5%
Estonians 22.7%
Latvians 16.0%
Russians 13.2%
Turks 5.9%
Ukrainians 5.5%
Swedes 5.5%
Bulgarians 4.9%
Portugueses 4.6%
Norwegians 3.5%
Czechs 3.0%
Danes 2.9%
Frenchmen 2.9%
Poles 2.5%
Italians 2.1%
Spaniards 2.1%
Slovakians 2.0%
Greeks 2.0%
Armenians 1.5%
Germans 1.3%
Belarusians 1.0%
Yugoslavians 1.0%
Icelanders 0.6%
Britons 0.4%
Scottish 0.3%

Sincerely the percentages are outragiously high for some populations, can someone actually believe that Finns are 1/3 Asians, that Turks are less than a half Asians than Russians are, that Portuguese are more than 4% Asian while Yugoslavians are only 1%?

Give me Agrippa's German scientists back, at least they traveled around the world and checked with their eyes what they were saying.

[Dienekes]

You have to consider the fact that the Asian features would be gradually diffused due to patrilocality.

Suppose that the Proto-Finns were 50% Asian and 50% European genetically, being an amalgam of Siberian males and the women they picked up on the way to northern Europe.

After they arrived in Europe, after each generation, they would pick up some European ancestry, because they would be surrounded by Europeans.

But, due to patrilocality the introgression of European genes would occur mainly via females. Thus, the patrilineages would remain essentially Asian, but the overall genetic composition would be gradually Europeanized.

To see how this could happen, imagine that fifty Asians found a town in Iceland. Initially that town will be 100% Asian. The Asians will marry Icelandic women who will move into the town. Now, the town is 50% Asian genomically but 100% Asian paternally. In the next generation, some inhabitants of the town will marry within themselves, but some will marry Icelandic women again. Some Icelanders may move into the town as well. So now they will be 98% Asian paternally, but perhaps now 40% Asian generally. Due to patrilocality the Y chromosomes will be conserved in a territory, whereas the genomic identity would slowly reach an equilibrium with the surrounding population.

So, if Finns are e.g., 60% Asian paternally, that does not mean that they are 30% Asian genomically.

[nockwasright]

admin said:

To see how this could happen, imagine that fifty Asians found a town in Iceland. Initially that town will be 100% Asian. The Asians will marry Icelandic women who will move into the town. Now, the town is 50% Asian genomically but 100% Asian paternally. In the next generation, some inhabitants of the town will marry within themselves, but some will marry Icelandic women again. Some Icelanders may move into the town as well. So now they will be 98% Asian paternally, but perhaps now 40% Asian generally. Due to patrilocality the Y chromosomes will be conserved in a territory, whereas the genomic identity would slowly reach an equilibrium with the surrounding population.

Thanks for the explanation.

The table was named "nationality admixture" though, so maybe it should be renamed "paternal Asian heritage".

What puzzles me is that you assume that esogamy will happen for all generations with the pattern "Asian or partially Asian males mate Icelandic women more than Asian or partially Asian women mate Icelandic men".

Why do you assume the first Asian settlers would be in prevalence males or however only or in prevalence the males among them would practice exogamy? And why this should be true also for the further generations?

[Ilmatar]

admin said:

You have to consider the fact that the Asian features would be gradually diffused due to patrilocality.

Suppose that the Proto-Finns were 50% Asian and 50% European genetically, being an amalgam of Siberian males and the women they picked up on the way to northern Europe.

I've always loved your "Asian men picking European women on their way to the Baltics" -theory, Dienekes. It is just fabulous ! I also admire your stubborness in defending it against any logical (never heard of a population who let their women just escape with some wandering strangers, or a hunter / pastoral population just leaving their women behind ?), linguistic (see the old Ugrian words present in Sami, Finnish and Estonian languages refering to female sphere of life) or archeological (plenty of evidence on contacts between peoples from the Baltic to the Volga-Kama or the Black Sea areas, but not to trans-Uralic area) evidence presented.

And I'm also still mad at Tiera for leaving the forum too soon. I would just have loved to read some further conversations beween him and you.

[Dienekes]

nockwasright said:

What puzzles me is that you assume that esogamy will happen for all generations with the pattern "Asian or partially Asian males mate Icelandic women more than Asian or partially Asian women mate Icelandic men".

No, that is not the assumption. Indeed all the matings may be equally random. What is important is that women should tend to move to their husband's home, and that men should stay in and control a territory. If this condition holds, then the natural consequence is that the Y chromosomes of the original male inhabitants of the territory will tend to be conserved, while the genomic constitution will tend to resemble that of the surrounding group.

Why do you assume the first Asian settlers would be in prevalence males or however only or in prevalence the males among them would practice exogamy? And why this should be true also for the further generations?

I have made no such assumptions. The only assumption is that people with Asian Y chromosomes settled in Northeast Europe.

[Dienekes]

cheeks said:

I've always loved your "Asian men picking European women on their way to the Baltics" -theory, Dienekes. It is just fabulous !

Thanks.

I also admire your stubborness in defending it against any logical (never heard of a population who let their women just escape with some wandering strangers, or a hunter / pastoral population just leaving their women behind

My theory does not require that any women were left behind. As long as a group is patrilineal and passes through or inhabits a territory dominated by a different group, then over time its Y chromosomes will conserve the constitution of the original population, while the genomic ancestry will become progressively more like that of the surrounding group.

[Ilmatar]

admin said:

My theory does not require that any women were left behind. As long as a group is patrilineal and passes through or inhabits a territory dominated by a different group, then over time its Y chromosomes will conserve the constitution of the original population, while the genomic ancestry will become progressively more like that of the surrounding group.

And what about the mtDNA ? Doesn't mtDNA preserve it's constitution just as well or even better than Y chromosome DNA ? What would explain the complete lack of not only "Asiatic" but even "Uralic" mtDNA in the Baltic States and Finland ?

[Dienekes]

cheeks said:

And what about the mtDNA ? Doesn't mtDNA preserve it's constitution just as well or even better than Y chromosome DNA ? What would explain the complete lack of not only "Asiatic" but even "Uralic" mtDNA in the Baltic States and Finland ?

There is no problem in accounting for that. First of all, "complete lack" is inaccurate. Second, it is expected that the mtDNA component would be reduced due to patrilocality.Third, the Proto-Finns need not have symmetrical Caucasoid-Mongoloid paternal/maternal constitution. A paternal lineage may spread across different mtDNA backgrounds, e.g., consider the different mtDNA backgrounds of E3b in East Africa, North Africa, and EUrope, or of R1a1 in the Baltics and in India.

[Ilmatar]

First of all, "complete lack" is inaccurate.

Yes, there is some "Asian" admixture in Sami, but practically none among the other Baltic populations.

Second, it is expected that the mtDNA component would be reduced due to patrilocality.

I might be stupid, but I don't see how this would work. First of all, mtDNA couldn't possibly be reduced, but only displaced as a result of patrilocality. So if we suppose that the Proto-Finnic were "Siberians", the supposed "Asian" mtDNA lineages of the Proto-Finns should live on somewhere unless there has been a massive genocide of the Proto-Finnic women. And it doesn't seem likely that all of them "went east".

Third, the Proto-Finns need not have symmetrical Caucasoid-Mongoloid paternal/maternal constitution

Agreed, but this would have already made "Proto-Finns" (I don't believe there was such a population, maybe there were Proto-Finnic Speakers, but their contribution really might be rather linguistic than genetic) mixed "Uralic" rather than a "Siberian" population.

[nockwasright]

admin said:

Re: Bunch of girls
No, that is not the assumption. Indeed all the matings may be equally random. What is important is that women should tend to move to their husband's home, and that men should stay in and control a territory. If this condition holds, then the natural consequence is that the Y chromosomes of the original male inhabitants of the territory will tend to be conserved, while the genomic constitution will tend to resemble that of the surrounding group.

So you mean a group occupies a territory, they interbreed with neighbours, but the males who interbreed tend to stay in the occupied territory, while the females tend to go with the surrounding group.

So you should have also an effect on the MtDNA of the surrounding populations that in the end makes the genetic balance even.

[henerte]

admin said:

You have to consider the fact that the Asian features would be gradually diffused due to patrilocality.

Suppose that the Proto-Finns were 50% Asian and 50% European genetically, being an amalgam of Siberian males and the women they picked up on the way to northern Europe.

After they arrived in Europe, after each generation, they would pick up some European ancestry, because they would be surrounded by Europeans.

But, due to patrilocality the introgression of European genes would occur mainly via females. Thus, the patrilineages would remain essentially Asian, but the overall genetic composition would be gradually Europeanized.

To see how this could happen, imagine that fifty Asians found a town in Iceland. Initially that town will be 100% Asian. The Asians will marry Icelandic women who will move into the town. Now, the town is 50% Asian genomically but 100% Asian paternally. In the next generation, some inhabitants of the town will marry within themselves, but some will marry Icelandic women again. Some Icelanders may move into the town as well. So now they will be 98% Asian paternally, but perhaps now 40% Asian generally. Due to patrilocality the Y chromosomes will be conserved in a territory, whereas the genomic identity would slowly reach an equilibrium with the surrounding population.

So, if Finns are e.g., 60% Asian paternally, that does not mean that they are 30% Asian genomically.

Sweeet!

I guess that explains why Greeks look caucasoid despite being of sub-saharan origin.

Today, they look ALMOST white but I'm sure that even 2k years ago they were still mulattoes.

[human2]

admin said:

The Asians will marry Icelandic women who will move into the town.

Sounds like Dienekes has a good plan. ;D

henerte said:

admin said:

You have to consider the fact that the Asian features would be gradually diffused due to patrilocality.

Suppose that the Proto-Finns were 50% Asian and 50% European genetically, being an amalgam of Siberian males and the women they picked up on the way to northern Europe.

After they arrived in Europe, after each generation, they would pick up some European ancestry, because they would be surrounded by Europeans.

But, due to patrilocality the introgression of European genes would occur mainly via females. Thus, the patrilineages would remain essentially Asian, but the overall genetic composition would be gradually Europeanized.

To see how this could happen, imagine that fifty Asians found a town in Iceland. Initially that town will be 100% Asian. The Asians will marry Icelandic women who will move into the town. Now, the town is 50% Asian genomically but 100% Asian paternally. In the next generation, some inhabitants of the town will marry within themselves, but some will marry Icelandic women again. Some Icelanders may move into the town as well. So now they will be 98% Asian paternally, but perhaps now 40% Asian generally. Due to patrilocality the Y chromosomes will be conserved in a territory, whereas the genomic identity would slowly reach an equilibrium with the surrounding population.

So, if Finns are e.g., 60% Asian paternally, that does not mean that they are 30% Asian genomically.

Sweeet!

I guess that explains why Greeks look caucasoid despite being of sub-saharan origin.

Today, they look ALMOST white but I'm sure that even 2k years ago they were still mulattoes.

Yes. ;D But don't discount the Africans. Cameroonians, since they are majority M173/R1*, are the most Cro-magnon and authentic European out of any of you.

[Polako]

human2 said:

Yes. ;D But don't discount the Africans. Cameroonians, since they are majority M173/R1*, are the most Cro-magnon and authentic European out of any of you.

Test their autosomal DNA and then you'll see how European they are.

On the other hand, Finns are almost 100% European in terms of autosomal DNA.