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Post by pierolapithecus on Aug 19, 2005 5:03:20 GMT -5
Asian lineages were much more prevalent than sub-Saharan lineages, detected even in the Southern and Western groups, mainly because Mongoloids entered Europe as migrants long ago, while Negroids came only recently as slaves and thus in smaller numbers with less access to natives for intermarriage. Northeastern Europe was by far most affected by the Asian ancestry, which is correlated with Finno-Ugrian migrations from the Arctic and Siberia occurring c. 4000 years ago, and possibly also with later invasions. Indeed, it comprises a principal component of genetic variation in Europe. NATIONALITY ADMIXTURE Lapps 47.4% Finns 30.0% Lithuanians 23.5% Estonians 22.7% Latvians 16.0% Russians 13.2% Turks 5.9% Ukrainians 5.5% Swedes 5.5% Bulgarians 4.9% Portugueses 4.6% Norwegians 3.5% Czechs 3.0% Danes 2.9% Frenchmen 2.9% Poles 2.5% Italians 2.1% Spaniards 2.1% Slovakians 2.0% Greeks 2.0% Armenians 1.5% Germans 1.3% Belarusians 1.0% Yugoslavians 1.0% Icelanders 0.6% Britons 0.4% Scottish 0.3% I'm always amazed by the stupidity of many people on these forums. These figures are for N (Tat-C) and do not necessarily indicate Mongoloid admixture. Finns have a lot of Tat-C, yet in ters of autosomal DNA (what we're made of, and not just our ancestral lineages) they are almost wholly Central European. Also, I would like to see some studies that the Huns, Avars and Turko-Mongols affected the European geene pool to any meaningful extent. I have yet to see any proof of this in scientific literature, yet most people on this forum take that myth as fact. Ok, I forgot to write the source and to link it to the N (Tat-C), but it's not necessary to insult, isn't? By the way you never comitted a mistake or what? |
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Post by henerte on Aug 19, 2005 6:28:51 GMT -5
Have you seen this? ;D Mongolian admixture in Poland[/i][/u] Transfus Med. 2003 Jun;13(3):161-3. The first example of anti-Diego(b) found in a Polish woman with the Di(a+b-) phenotype and haemolytic disease of the newborn not requiring treatment. Lenkiewicz B, Zupanska B. All pregnant women with anti-Diegob (anti-Dib) described so far were non-Caucasians. We present the case of a Polish Di(a+b-) woman with anti-Dib, which did not bind complement, was immunoglobulin G3 (IgG3) alone and had very low functional activity. She delivered a Di(a+b+) infant with a positive direct antiglobulin test and the antibody in his serum but very mild haemolytic disease. Both parents of the pregnant woman were Di(a+b+), so were all her three children. The whole family have been living in a small village in southeastern Poland for a long time. The rare Diego phenotypes, found now and previously in Poland, suggest gene admixture introduced as a result of Poland being invaded by Mongolian-background Tatars during the past centuries.... This is not the first time that a very rare phenotype of the Diego system was detected in Poland. Amongst 9661 Poles tested, 45 (0·47%) were found to have Di(a+) antigen (Kusnierz-Alejska & Bochenek, 1992). Thus, its incidence is much higher than that seen in any other White population tested (Issitt & Anstee, 1998). This observation was attributed to the very probable gene admixture resulting from several military invasions of Poland by Tatars of Mongolian background in the past (Kusnierz-Alejska & Bochenek, 1992); it is known that Di(a+) is mainly found in people from the East (Issitt & Anstee, 1998). ... The possibility of the influence of people from the East on the frequency of certain antigens in the Polish population is also consistent with our previous observations on the incidence of human platelet antigen (HPA) genotypes. The frequency of HPA-2 and HPA-5 alleles in Poles was similar to that in Far East nations (Drzewek et al., 1998). Taken from Dienekes' blog ( ;D) dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/archives/2003_10.html |
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Post by Polako on Aug 19, 2005 7:51:51 GMT -5
Have you seen this? ;D Mongolian admixture in Poland[/i][/u] Transfus Med. 2003 Jun;13(3):161-3. The first example of anti-Diego(b) found in a Polish woman with the Di(a+b-) phenotype and haemolytic disease of the newborn not requiring treatment. Lenkiewicz B, Zupanska B. All pregnant women with anti-Diegob (anti-Dib) described so far were non-Caucasians. We present the case of a Polish Di(a+b-) woman with anti-Dib, which did not bind complement, was immunoglobulin G3 (IgG3) alone and had very low functional activity. She delivered a Di(a+b+) infant with a positive direct antiglobulin test and the antibody in his serum but very mild haemolytic disease. Both parents of the pregnant woman were Di(a+b+), so were all her three children. The whole family have been living in a small village in southeastern Poland for a long time. The rare Diego phenotypes, found now and previously in Poland, suggest gene admixture introduced as a result of Poland being invaded by Mongolian-background Tatars during the past centuries.... This is not the first time that a very rare phenotype of the Diego system was detected in Poland. Amongst 9661 Poles tested, 45 (0·47%) were found to have Di(a+) antigen (Kusnierz-Alejska & Bochenek, 1992). Thus, its incidence is much higher than that seen in any other White population tested (Issitt & Anstee, 1998). This observation was attributed to the very probable gene admixture resulting from several military invasions of Poland by Tatars of Mongolian background in the past (Kusnierz-Alejska & Bochenek, 1992); it is known that Di(a+) is mainly found in people from the East (Issitt & Anstee, 1998). ... The possibility of the influence of people from the East on the frequency of certain antigens in the Polish population is also consistent with our previous observations on the incidence of human platelet antigen (HPA) genotypes. The frequency of HPA-2 and HPA-5 alleles in Poles was similar to that in Far East nations (Drzewek et al., 1998). Taken from Dienekes' blog ( ;D) dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/archives/2003_10.html[/quote]Yeah, I've seen it. It was Dienekes who called it "Mongolian admixture in Poland". That was never the title of the report. However, the incidence of this blood marker is higher in Germany than in SE Poland. Blood markers are not a good indication of ancestry. If they were, then Greeks would be classified as sub-Saharan Africans. |
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Post by Dienekes on Aug 19, 2005 8:13:47 GMT -5
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Post by Dienekes on Aug 19, 2005 8:16:44 GMT -5
It was Dienekes who called it "Mongolian admixture in Poland". That was never the title of the report. It was introduced by Mongolian-background Tatars. It is evidence of Mongoloid admixture. Indeed, Germans have this admixture as well. Not all blood groups are the same. Di(a) is a Mongoloid marker, because it is found at a low frequency (0.01%) in Caucasoids and at substantially higher frequencies in Mongoloids as per my sources above. |
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Post by zemelmete on Aug 19, 2005 9:55:02 GMT -5
Asian lineages were much more prevalent than sub-Saharan lineages, detected even in the Southern and Western groups, mainly because Mongoloids entered Europe as migrants long ago, while Negroids came only recently as slaves and thus in smaller numbers with less access to natives for intermarriage. Northeastern Europe was by far most affected by the Asian ancestry, which is correlated with Finno-Ugrian migrations from the Arctic and Siberia occurring c. 4000 years ago, and possibly also with later invasions. Indeed, it comprises a principal component of genetic variation in Europe. NATIONALITY ADMIXTURE Lapps 47.4% Finns 30.0% Lithuanians 23.5% Estonians 22.7% Latvians 16.0% Russians 13.2% Turks 5.9% Ukrainians 5.5% Swedes 5.5% Bulgarians 4.9% Portugueses 4.6% Norwegians 3.5% Czechs 3.0% Danes 2.9% Frenchmen 2.9% Poles 2.5% Italians 2.1% Spaniards 2.1% Slovakians 2.0% Greeks 2.0% Armenians 1.5% Germans 1.3% Belarusians 1.0% Yugoslavians 1.0% Icelanders 0.6% Britons 0.4% Scottish 0.3% Saami (or lapps) have <5% mongoloid admixture Even the most eastern finno-ugrian nations (khanty and mansi) are perdominantely european and have 34% mongoloid/siberian genes. |
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Post by jam on Aug 19, 2005 11:46:26 GMT -5
Asian lineages were much more prevalent than sub-Saharan lineages, detected even in the Southern and Western groups, mainly because Mongoloids entered Europe as migrants long ago, while Negroids came only recently as slaves and thus in smaller numbers with less access to natives for intermarriage. Northeastern Europe was by far most affected by the Asian ancestry, which is correlated with Finno-Ugrian migrations from the Arctic and Siberia occurring c. 4000 years ago, and possibly also with later invasions. Indeed, it comprises a principal component of genetic variation in Europe. NATIONALITY ADMIXTURE Lapps 47.4% Finns 30.0% Lithuanians 23.5% Estonians 22.7% Latvians 16.0% Russians 13.2% Turks 5.9% Ukrainians 5.5% Swedes 5.5% Bulgarians 4.9% Portugueses 4.6% Norwegians 3.5% Czechs 3.0% Danes 2.9% Frenchmen 2.9% Poles 2.5% Italians 2.1% Spaniards 2.1% Slovakians 2.0% Greeks 2.0% Armenians 1.5% Germans 1.3% Belarusians 1.0% Yugoslavians 1.0% Icelanders 0.6% Britons 0.4% Scottish 0.3% I'm always amazed by the stupidity of many people on these forums. These figures are for N (Tat-C) and do not necessarily indicate Mongoloid admixture. Finns have a lot of Tat-C, yet in ters of autosomal DNA (what we're made of, and not just our ancestral lineages) they are almost wholly Central European. Also, I would like to see some studies that the Huns, Avars and Turko-Mongols affected the European geene pool to any meaningful extent. I have yet to see any proof of this in scientific literature, yet most people on this forum take that myth as fact. So, it's 30% of the population, that have tat-c? In that case, it doesn't say anything about the mongoloid admixture, and as far as I have read, it's not common in "real" east asians (I may be wrong, though.) |
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Post by Dienekes on Aug 19, 2005 17:50:25 GMT -5
"No less than 537 surveys in 188 ethnic groups, comprising 90,644 blood specimens, were considered. The bibliography lists around 1000 references." "The already mentioned global survey indicated that Dia is basically a marker of Asian ancestry, but not all Asians have the antigen." www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200106/ai_n8977380Red herring arguments about alleged Sub-Saharan admixture in Greeks have no bearing on this matter. The idea of this so-called admixture has been adequately demolished by several population geneticists. dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/kemp/Feel free to post any relevant information that contradicts my sources re: Di(a). |
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Post by jam on Aug 19, 2005 17:53:29 GMT -5
"No less than 537 surveys in 188 ethnic groups, comprising 90,644 blood specimens, were considered. The bibliography lists around 1000 references." "The already mentioned global survey indicated that Dia is basically a marker of Asian ancestry, but not all Asians have the antigen." www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200106/ai_n8977380Red herring arguments about alleged Sub-Saharan admixture in Greeks have no bearing on this matter. The idea of this so-called admixture has been adequately demolished by several population geneticists. dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/kemp/Feel free to post any relevant information that contradicts my sources re: Di(a). I don't know if this is targeted at what I wrote above, but anyway, I didn't say that there isn't any admixture. I meant that it doesn't say anything about the AMOUNT of mixture. |
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Post by Dienekes on Aug 19, 2005 18:05:29 GMT -5
I don't know if this is targeted at what I wrote above, but anyway, I didn't say that there isn't any admixture. I meant that it doesn't say anything about the AMOUNT of mixture. The amount of admixture can be estimated by taking into account the levels of Di(a) in the source populations. For example, the Mongolians, from which the Tatars of Mongolian background were partially descended have a frequency of 10%. This indicates approximately 4.7% of Mongoloid admixture, given the frequency of 0.47% of this allele in Poles. Also, I referred to Di(a) and not to you, since you posted about levels of Tat-C polymorphism. |
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Post by jam on Aug 21, 2005 6:36:07 GMT -5
Ok, but you just confused me  |
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Post by Polako on Aug 21, 2005 7:50:13 GMT -5
I don't know if this is targeted at what I wrote above, but anyway, I didn't say that there isn't any admixture. I meant that it doesn't say anything about the AMOUNT of mixture. The amount of admixture can be estimated by taking into account the levels of Di(a) in the source populations. For example, the Mongolians, from which the Tatars of Mongolian background were partially descended have a frequency of 10%. This indicates approximately 4.7% of Mongoloid admixture, given the frequency of 0.47% of this allele in Poles. Also, I referred to Di(a) and not to you, since you posted about levels of Tat-C polymorphism. So Berlin Germans have about 9% of Mongolian admixture as they have twice as much Di(a) as Poles in south eastern Poland? |
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Post by Polako on Aug 21, 2005 8:06:17 GMT -5
Ineteresing quote there Dienekes...
Yet, you seem to suggest that Berlin has 9% of Mongolian admixture? 9% is not low.
What are the figures for other European populations?
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Post by Marobud on Aug 21, 2005 11:01:39 GMT -5
Polako, visit Hungary and - yes -, Slovakia. Then you will know a lot about Avar - Tatar - Hun influence. You will see many very nice  examples similar to that Asiatic girl. It is known how Slavic tribes settled in Balcans - forced to cooperation with nomads (ruled by Avars etc.) they conquered land, then nomads left (they were nomads), Slavic tribes (farmers) stayed at conquered land. |
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Post by Polako on Aug 21, 2005 19:18:25 GMT -5
Polako, visit Hungary and - yes -, Slovakia. Then you will know a lot about Avar - Tatar - Hun influence. You will see many very nice examples similar to that Asiatic girl. It is known how Slavic tribes settled in Balcans - forced to cooperation with nomads (ruled by Avars etc.) they conquered land, then nomads left (they were nomads), Slavic tribes (farmers) stayed at conquered land. I've been to Hungary. These sorts of observations are of little value. I want scientific info. |
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examples similar to that Asiatic girl. It is known how Slavic tribes settled in Balcans - forced to cooperation with nomads (ruled by Avars etc.) they conquered land, then nomads left (they were nomads), Slavic tribes (farmers) stayed at conquered land.