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Post by Dienekes on Sept 7, 2005 1:17:14 GMT -5
Personally I think that perceptions of the opposite sex are distorted by the fact that men and women don't behave the same when they are around men and women. Female perceptions of the male sex are perceptions of male behavior _in the presence of women_ and vice versa. So, I think that for most of us the other sex is ultimately unknowable in its entirety.
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Post by Ilmatar on Sept 7, 2005 2:03:35 GMT -5
Well, this is something that happens a lot more in the Southern Europe than in Northern Europe.  The change of tone the French women, for instance, have as soon as a man walks into a room is very evident to the Northern Europeans. But even in the Southern Europe the younger generations tend to reserve these changes to the evident courting situations. |
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 7, 2005 3:14:57 GMT -5
What you as a "cold Nord" fail to understand is the fundamental difference between the North and the South philosophy: you somehow propose and practise biological "equality" for the functioning of your community, while we actually practise self-knowledge and live exactly according to what we are. No offence for anyone but at this point the debate reaches a paradox, as you are advocating a "live according to your emotions and istincts" way of living that is actually very femminine, as opposed to the "live according rules of behaviour" that is a more masculine view of the world. What I mean is that all the emphasis given to istincts and emotions is a given of the "feminisation" of our society. The Northern society is actually more "virile" under this point of view, as it places more value in controlling emotions and istincts. Well, there's Sex and the City. Or for women magazines, soap operas ... and for our lovely counterparts there's sport magazines, cawboy movie and porno ... |
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omegaspan
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Post by omegaspan on Sept 7, 2005 5:35:42 GMT -5
Another cold Nord?
No paradox in this debate, pal, you just seem to be a little confused
What i said pal, is that Southern people behave according to what they are and according to their self-knowledge. I told you you got confused...dont worry it will all seem clear enough to you when you finish reading this message
Is that so? By what standards?
You are wrong, insticts and emotions are irrelevant to the 'feminine' or 'masculine' form of a society. There are feminine insticts and feminine emotions and there are masculine insticts and masculine emotions. Which of those are you exactly reffering to and moreover suggesting are making Southern societies 'feminine'?
Placing a lot of value in controlling emotions and insticts does not make your Northern society masculine or feminine, it makes your society simply and plainly functional, since emotional reactions are not a major problem. Plain functionality through supression of emotions, has nothing to do with virility.
So your Northern society is actually neuter.
What i said was that Southern people get to know themselves and live according to their nature. What does that mean? It means that males grow up forming a strong simple male identity and females a feminine one. Thus, roles are not mixed, society gets its original masculine part and its original feminine part. And since you mentioned it, everyone expresses their emotions and insticts, that is their separate masculine or feminine emotions and insticts, for males and females, thus, contributing exactly their natural masculine for males, or feminine for females energy and creativity to their society.
This may be to the cost of functionality some times, and so we come again to what i first said: that Northern societies propose a biological equality for the sake of functionality of the Northen society, while Southern societies are places of true human expression/essence, male and female, masculine and feminine.
A Southern male will not stop being masculine because of some rules or regulations. This in some cases may indeed be harmfull to functionality.
A Northern male will maybe be "gentle" against newly married homosexuals, because his country's rules may demand that of him. Is that masculine behaviour?
If you re still confused comrade, i can explain it to you even further...
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 7, 2005 10:02:01 GMT -5
Another cold Nord? No paradox in this debate, pal, you just seem to be a little confused Pal, I'm not confused at all, it's so not like you are unveiling some mistery to a disciple. I meant what I said and still mean it; more than explaining some unknown truth, your "explanations" make plain the roots of your misconceptions. By the way, I'm not a nord at all except maybe by Congolese standards. Since I started writing here I have been mistaken for black american, russian and jew, glad you added nord to my personal collection, but this puerile partisan conception of debating is quite tiresome. The above phrase is not confusing but sipmly meaningless. Deconstruct it. Everybody behaves accordingly to what he is because behaviour is part of what he is. If someone restrain his emotions/istincts then restraining himself is part of what he is and of his conception. The fact your statement is mere flatus voci however does not confuse me, on the contrary is what I expected. The above is plain wrong but at least makes sense. Any psychology book would tell you that expressing emotions/talking about emotions/make emotions driven choiches is a femminine trait (e.g. Sex on the Brain by Deborah Blum). Any sociology book would tell you that the growing importance given to emotions and their expression in society is due to the rise of women to the role of producers/consumers of culture (see "Innamoramento", Alberoni for instance on the point). Who do you think are addressed to those talk shows where everyone cries, shouts and unveils his human misery? Men? We are not talking of suppression of emotions, but of suppression of display of emotions. In what exactly people in Northern Europe would be forced to grow up and live in conflict with their own identity? All western societies are based on equality before the law, and that's it. Statistically in Southern societies women tend to stick more to their traditional role than in Northern societies. But they do it a lot less than they did before. Also, the pattern is perfectly coincident with whealth/literacy rates (as in the less you have of them the more women tend to stick to their traditional role). Thus, it seems more likely that we are not seeing a structural difference between the two societies but just different degrees of developement. Yes, being able to keep your emotions to yourself is masculine behaviour. If you have been in the army you will remember that being a soldiar is all about acting as if you were a robot. You will agree a military ideal is a virile ideal. This just in, I'm a stirnerian individualist, so I ain't no one's camerade. |
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omegaspan
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Post by omegaspan on Sept 7, 2005 10:37:33 GMT -5
Congratulations
you re still missing being mistaken for an Australian aboriginal and an Eskimo, hm it will be a bit hard to make people think you re one of those!
it would be enlightening though and honest to tell us your sex and your ethnic/national/racial/whatever background you would like to tell us...
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 7, 2005 10:51:46 GMT -5
Actually this forum is only about ideas, not persons, so it shoudn't change anything to know who am I. I don't know where you are from, nor your age or what you do. And this doesn't affect what we say, does it?
P.S.
Is ars longa vita brEvis
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omegaspan
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Post by omegaspan on Sept 8, 2005 6:48:40 GMT -5
Nockwasright, you re obviously a male with preferences for the western Northern type of society.
Your response shows how much you prefer to be that neuter type of individual that flourishes in your beloved type of society. There is no reason to fear giving some information on yourself though, its not like i am a policeman or something.
That is what i am talkign about, your behaviour is not masculine, in that a Southern male would clearly state his identity to back his opinions on something. Personality and gender are interconnected. Something that has been in many cases eliminated in the "progressive" Northern machine-societies.
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Post by Ilmatar on Sept 8, 2005 9:07:42 GMT -5
That is what i am talkign about, your behaviour is not masculine, in that a Southern male would clearly state his identity to back his opinions on something. Personality and gender are interconnected. Something that has been in many cases eliminated in the "progressive" Northern machine-societies. Well, judging from the responses of to the "Locating Dodonians" thread stating one's identity in order to back up one's opinions seems far from extinct from the Northern societies. And it wouldn't be particularly masculine behaviour either, since most of the more active female posters (there aren't many of us around) have actually contributed to the thread. |
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 8, 2005 9:25:45 GMT -5
That is what i am talkign about, your behaviour is not masculine, in that a Southern male would clearly state his identity to back his opinions on something. Personality and gender are interconnected. Something that has been in many cases eliminated in the "progressive" Northern machine-societies. I agree that personality and gender are statistically related, but how could my identity back any opinion that's beyond me. An idea is an idea, the best way to wheigh it up is to consider it in itslelf regardless to the person who expressed it. This are the basics of discussion methods actually. Then I do not "love" Northen Europe, actually I don't identify in any society, societies and national characters are an expression of the masses and at the same time an illusion concieved for the masses, not for me. I don't consider myself seriously connected to any mass of people, however identified. According to you to know where I'm from (Southern Italy) or live (Northern Italy), would define me, but it actually doesn't. Btw many already know, I've posted my pic for classification time ago, this was never a issue for me, nor others ever showed such curiosity as you. As Ilmatar said, the few women active on the board hurried to state their (already well known by most members) personal data in the dedicated thread. Being unable to discuss with someone without knowing his personal data looks very femminine (personal vs abstraction) to me. |
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omegaspan
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Post by omegaspan on Sept 9, 2005 0:44:52 GMT -5
That is what i am talkign about, your behaviour is not masculine, in that a Southern male would clearly state his identity to back his opinions on something. Personality and gender are interconnected. Something that has been in many cases eliminated in the "progressive" Northern machine-societies. Well, judging from the responses of to the "Locating Dodonians" thread stating one's identity in order to back up one's opinions seems far from extinct from the Northern societies. And it wouldn't be particularly masculine behaviour either, since most of the more active female posters (there aren't many of us around) have actually contributed to the thread. How exactly are you planing to "to become a Goddess" before your 29th birthday? |
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Post by Ilmatar on Sept 9, 2005 0:56:49 GMT -5
I think that it shouldn't be that hard to figure out for a logical, analytical male like you. A hint: Watch the post count. |
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omegaspan
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Post by omegaspan on Sept 9, 2005 1:03:16 GMT -5
What you do is confuse peoples' real identities with internet forum identities. In real life, ones identity plays a role to ones opinion.
Its people that discuss ideas. That means their opinions are heavily biased, and their identity plays a large part in forming their pesonal biased opinions on ideas.
Oh, so you re actually a "homeless" in terms of national self-identification individualist. You are a biproduct of the free market and capitalist globalisation...
I dont know how this may sound to you, but i normally do not consider people who have no respect of national traditions as worthwhile to talk to....
Well well well
so we have a Southern Italiano who is now a Northern Italiano....
you may not define yourself according to your origins, but nonetheless by telling me about them, is now as if i ve known you for all your life
Completely irrelevant
Ok, first of all, i ve been indeed discussing with you with several messages now.
Secondly, you claim that "personal" approaches are femminine???
Let me ask you this: what if a guy on the street starts calling you names and picks up a fight with you? It will be a personal attack. The masculine thing to do is to get personal with him and answer his insults. An "abstract" thing to do is keep walking pretending he does not exist, thus acting like a sissy!
And frankly pal, from the first message you adressed me, you ve been calling my positions "feminine", trying to insult me in an indeed very feminine and sideways maner...
What is your problem? You hate your own Southern roots and everyone that stands up for them? What should i call you since you keep trying to make me appear "feminine"? Shall i call you now a f*cking feminist fag? Will that make you happy? Is that the level of conversation you hope to get from me?
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Post by Ilmatar on Sept 9, 2005 2:53:42 GMT -5
It's funny, you are a man tending to use your analytical brain skills more than women, while I'm a woman using my 'wholistic' brain capacities and the emotional ones. Yet it seems that I'm the one here who actually places some importance to empirical evidence, while you find it completely irrelevant and prefer to count on your personal, possibly emotional perception.
For someone with such a high personal regard to national traditions and people valueing their national traditions (which, IMO, really don't even excist in Italy, a very heterogenous country both historically and culturally, or even linguistically) you have been incredibly elusive regarding your ethnic background, failing even to answer my direct question on that regard in the "Feminism as tribalism" Thread. As you see, it would even be possible to add that information to your profile.
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 9, 2005 3:32:30 GMT -5
Wow Omega (can I call you Omega, in a Brave New Wolrd acception?) you're a real macho on the keyboard, I am soo impressed. Ever heard the words "closet homo"? That's what your posts make me think of (could be also "greek teenager who can't grow a beard" as second choice). This is my last post addressed to you because I don't really have any hope left to receive any interesting answer. Profit from our meeting, and amend that ignorant mistake in your signature. Personal insults are not allowed |
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The change of tone the French women, for instance, have as soon as a man walks into a room is very evident to the Northern Europeans. But even in the Southern Europe the younger generations tend to reserve these changes to the evident courting situations.
