The North African Character of Spaniards

[SwordandCompass]

Bagpipes is not celtic! neither is bullfighting ha!Hilde is not Rex. Rex is just some weirdo.Hilde though is one of these kooks who wants to separate Galicia from Spain and uses weak arguments like "bagpipes" and "bullfighting".The irony of this all is Franco was Galician! ha
¡Santiago y ceirra Espana!

[Igu]

IranianLion said:

If North Africans (I suspect you are referring to Berbers) are so close to Western Europeans then how come the genetic map of classical markers by Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1994) suggests that this is far from the case?

I do let the image on purpose (to Mel the erasor)

It's not northern berbers who have been studied in this genitic map, but Sharan berbers (a mix of Caucasoid and negroid) I remind that saharian berbers represent only 2% of those who are geniticly berber.

I copy the text to show you that "berbers" in this map are in fact "saharan berbers":

"The races of mankind have been fairly well delineated by modern genetic distance plots, with Mongoloids forming a cluster to the left, Caucasoids to the upper right, and Negroids to the lower right. Groups of known mixed origin (Lapps, Saharan Berbers, East Indians) are expectedly in intermediate positions."

you can check that here:

www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/race.html

[Melnorme]

Igu said:

I do let the image on purpose (to Mel the erasor)

Actually, I'm not sure where it says that those Berbers are 'Saharan' other than Racial Reality's webpage.

As far as sex markers go, the Y-chromosome of Northwest Africans is very different from Europeans', but there are some striking mtDNA similarities.

[IranianLion]

Igu said:

I do let the image on purpose (to Mel the erasor)

It's not northern berbers who have been studied in this genitic map, but Sharan berbers (a mix of Caucasoid and negroid) I remind that saharian berbers represent only 2% of those who are geniticly berber.

I copy the text to show you that "berbers" in this map are in fact "saharan berbers":

"The races of mankind have been fairly well delineated by modern genetic distance plots, with Mongoloids forming a cluster to the left, Caucasoids to the upper right, and Negroids to the lower right. Groups of known mixed origin (Lapps, Saharan Berbers, East Indians) are expectedly in intermediate positions."

you can check that here:

www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/race.html

I wasn't even aware that Berbers lived in the Sahara. I thought they lived in the mountains. Are these Saharan Berbers also known as Mozabite Berbers?

I was very surprised by the position of Berbers on that genetic map. In fact, it was for me the only thing on that map that didn't make much sense (others would say it is the position of Iranians ). Surely if they were so far removed from European populations they would not be Caucasoid. I would have expected them to be much closer to European populations.

So I think it makes sense that the Berbers depicted on that map are Saharan Berbers as you suggest.

[Igu]

Melnorme said:

Actually, I'm not sure where it says that those Berbers are 'Saharan' other than Racial Reality's webpage.

As far as sex markers go, the Y-chromosome of Northwest Africans is very different from Europeans', but there are some striking mtDNA similarities.

So far from middle easteners?

[Igu]

IranianLion said:

I wasn't even aware that Berbers lived in the Sahara. I thought they lived in the mountains. Are these Saharan Berbers also known as Mozabite Berbers?

Actually, the majority of north africans are of berber descent, whether they live in mountains or not.

-Yes, Mozabites live in sahara, but they are not called saharan berbers., because they are not nomads.

-saharan berbers or "touaregs" are those who are nomads, 75% of them live in niger and mali.

-Mozabites are muslims but not sunni, they are a khariji and have been persecuted, that's why they haven't been arabized, they are about 10.000 people... the'yve all the same face because they descent from one family!

Mozabites:




toureg in mali:

www.save-the-elephants.org/Photo%20Gallery/Mali%20Expendition/original/DSC02446%20Touareg,%20Samake%20and%20El%20Medhi.jpg[/img]

touareg in algeria:

[Melnorme]

Igu said:

So far from middle easteners?

Eh?

[Melnorme]

Kharijites? You mean the guys who killed Ali?
Good thing for them there are not many Shi'ites in Algeria...

[Igu]

Melnorme said:

Eh?

I meant, they (berbers) can't be genitically that far from middle easteners.

[Igu]

Melnorme said:

Kharijites? You mean the guys who killed Ali?
Good thing for them there are not many Shi'ites in Algeria...

I think that this is just a sunni propaganda, Sunnis killed Ali and blamed the fault on Kharijis.

All north africa was Kharijite untill the 15th century, when some animals called Ibn hillal came to north africa to kill and burn lands.

Do you really see any difference between Shia and Sunna? Just different versions of stories about insignficant details.

[IranianLion]

Igu said:

I think that this is just a sunni propaganda, Sunnis killed Ali and blamed the fault on Kharijis.

All north africa was Kharijite untill the 15th century, when some animals called Ibn hillal came to north africa to kill and burn lands.

Do you really see any difference between Shia and Sunna? Just different versions of stories about insignficant details.

There are very significant differences between the Sunni and Shia sects although of course they are still the same religion. It's not just about stories.

[Lusfono]

Melnorme said:

Apropos - that Galician guy 'Hilde' from Dienekes' blog wants to be 'Celto-Germanic'. ( 'we play bagpipes! we don't have bullfights!' )

They don't have bullfights in galicia.

The early inhabitants of galicia known were celts or celtiberians.

Many aspects of galician culture still guard celtics roots.

Have you ever listen to galician music? It resembles somewhat irish music and has nothing to od with flamenco...

In fact the name galicia come's from the latin gallaecia(the name givem by the romans) which has the same prefixe gal, gallis as in galia, galacia, gaelli. This prefixe was used by the romans to identifiy celtic people, language. Also, gallaeci was how the romans callaed the celt tribes from north of the douro river, in other words, from Gallaecia ( Galicia ).

[Tautamo]

Guest-Lusfono said:

They don't have bullfights in galicia.

The early inhabitants of galicia known were celts or celtiberians.

Many aspects of galician culture still guard celtics roots.

Have you ever listen to galician music? It resembles somewhat irish music and has nothing to od with flamenco...

In fact the name galicia come's from the latin gallaecia(the name givem by the romans) which has the same prefixe gal, gallis as in galia, galacia, gaelli. This prefixe was used by the romans to identifiy celtic people, language. Also, gallaeci was how the romans callaed the celt tribes from north of the douro river, in other words, from Gallaecia ( Galicia ).

www.ucm.es/info/arqueoweb/numero3_3/articulo3_3_diazsantana.html

Also music means shit.

[Tautamo]

dodona.proboards35.com/index.cgi?board=history&action=display&thread=1103060410

[mike2]

What I don't understand is how in c.3000 B.C. the Iberians can enter Spain from North Africa and yet not be related to the Berbers.