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Post by Drooperdoo on Sept 27, 2005 14:49:43 GMT -5
Most of the Founding Fathers were deists. That in no way implies that they weren't Christian. "Christian" is not only a religious term, but a cultural one as well. Did the Founding Fathers celebrate Christmas? --Yes, every one of them. Did they attend church? --Yes, every one of them. Did they celebrate Easter, send their children to Sunday School, have pastors and ministers come to Congress? Yes, yes, and yes. So in what way weren't they Christian?
You people are falling for multi-culturalist revisionism--attempting to re-write America's founding so that it wasn't so . . . icky-yucky . . . Western European, white and Christian.
Now, were they perfect Christians? --Of course not. What Muslim leader is a perfect Muslim? What Buddhist leader is a perfect Buddhist? None. But who would deny that, say, the President of Iran is Muslim just because he's not a cleric himself? Or who would deny that the Prime Minister of India was not Hindu, just because he is not the perfect "Hindu"? Let's not lapse into stupidity: If you celebrate Christmas, go to church and ask for ministers to preside over Congressional events then you're a Christian. Get over it.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Sept 27, 2005 15:38:50 GMT -5
<<Most of the Founding Fathers were deists. That in no way implies that they weren't Christian. "Christian" is not only a religious term, but a cultural one as well. Did the Founding Fathers celebrate Christmas? --Yes, every one of them. Did they attend church? --Yes, every one of them. Did they celebrate Easter, send their children to Sunday School, have pastors and ministers come to Congress? Yes, yes, and yes. So in what way weren't they Christian?>>
Droop as you know that is only for shows and for the public consumption,as the vast American or European public is "Christian".Behind closed doors is far different matter.
Deist believe in the enlightened concept of "Supreme Being" or "Power",not necessarily Christian values or concepts,they have their own version or incarnations that not related to mainstream Christianity or Judaism as they welcome them into their fold.As Deists reject organized religion and promote reason as the essential element in making moral decisions ect.
Also Satanist among other Neo-pagan's celebrate their own version Christmas and christian activities believe it or not..Even Christmas is a sham as its based on the Winter Solstice ,same as with all Saints day among many other Christian holiday's,traditions and concepts were based on old "Pagan" beliefs, holidays & festivals of Southern Europe,then later same was done with Central Northern Europe and the Christianity was simply superimposed over the old religions .
So that really doenst factor in all that much!
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Matthew
Full Member
Village Idiot
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Post by Matthew on Sept 28, 2005 15:18:48 GMT -5
Satanists, don't consider them Neo-Pagans, Pagans, or Heathens.
Freemasonry does involve a ritual on May Day, or Walpurgisnacht. Which they borrowed from the older traditions.
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omegaspan
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????? ??????? ??????, ??????? ??????
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Post by omegaspan on Sept 28, 2005 17:20:22 GMT -5
Yes baby. And i have every right to introduce my question in that maner, making a logical hypothesis based on your foreign policy. So? The official government line is bloody christianity. Thats an interesting perspective Minority or not, they are the ones who run the show. So i am actually right! You mean that bunch of Freemasons? So, once again we reach the point when one question arises: Are the American people responsible for their country's doings? The result is what really matters. There are American people who agree with the policy of taking over the world. There are American people who disagree but dont reallly care. There are American people who disagree and try to do something about it. But, the result is what really matters. Are there people in America that are honestly good people, not responsible for their governments doings? I m sure there are. Were there German people in Nazi Germany that were honestly good people, not responsible for their governments doings? I m sure there were.. I'd like to be idealistic, but sadly we are not in control of this "democracy" no matter how much it is celebrated and its virtues repeated ad nauseum. And it's not just Americans who have blinders on, so don't get on your high horse just yet. As for what to do about it... that's a much harder question. Various groups are trying to address it in different ways. Certainly U.S. power will wane in coming decades and then we can have a new network of power for everyone to complain about, if we are even allowed to do that. You re not in control? Ok, then your whole government officials and administration, must be living on another planet, and land on America just to dictate their wishes. Yes, makes sense, no one else has any involvement in ruling and running this 400.000.000 country! Its so nice to talk in theory, but there is no place for theory, for a person whose family for example has been butchered by this government of yours you claim you people have no control on. I guess you must have realized that yourself too, if you pay any attention to world events these days. Living in a fantasy land, is good, but it forces others to live in their fantasy lands as well, and thus different fantasies come to conflict. Living in reality on the other hand, is more honest, and would make you say that , yes, its true, you re brainwashed, conscious destroyers of the environment, drunken with what you believe is ultimate global power and control, total materialism and useless technological overdrive.....but you prefer to admit to your passive lazy role of just waiting to see what happens next decided by others for you..
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Post by Hairless on Sept 28, 2005 22:38:36 GMT -5
I'd like to be idealistic, but sadly we are not in control of this "democracy" no matter how much it is celebrated and its virtues repeated ad nauseum. And it's not just Americans who have blinders on, so don't get on your high horse just yet. As for what to do about it... that's a much harder question. Various groups are trying to address it in different ways. Certainly U.S. power will wane in coming decades and then we can have a new network of power for everyone to complain about, if we are even allowed to do that. You re not in control? Ok, then your whole government officials and administration, must be living on another planet, and land on America just to dictate their wishes. Yes, makes sense, no one else has any involvement in ruling and running this 400.000.000 country! Its so nice to talk in theory, but there is no place for theory, for a person whose family for example has been butchered by this government of yours you claim you people have no control on. I guess you must have realized that yourself too, if you pay any attention to world events these days. Living in a fantasy land, is good, but it forces others to live in their fantasy lands as well, and thus different fantasies come to conflict. Living in reality on the other hand, is more honest, and would make you say that , yes, its true, you re brainwashed, conscious destroyers of the environment, drunken with what you believe is ultimate global power and control, total materialism and useless technological overdrive.....but you prefer to admit to your passive lazy role of just waiting to see what happens next decided by others for you.. I don't live in a fantasy land. I vote in **every** single local, state, and federal election (despite evidence that suggests that our system has been sabotagued)... I have gone to many anti-war protests, even for the first Gulf War and have been dragged by policemen through cactus in the desert protesting other policies I disagree with. So do many of my neighbors and in my wide circle of friends and professional contacts I know very few people who are happy with what is happening. ***You*** live in a fantasy land if you really think that anything other than money (big corporations) and a select powerful few have a chokehold on democracies throughout the world. If you choose to believe $$$$$-controlled media sources and trying to rile you up then that is your own ignorance. And FOR THE RECORD Protestant Christians (in name) make up approximately 1/2 of Americans and it's dropping by percentages every decade it is polled. Btw, should I believe the various sources I see about the crackdown by the Greek Orthodox Church on other religions and that claim by Greek-born authors that Greek anti-democratic suppression was the model for American policies in Southeast Asia? Unlike you I'd have to do a lot more investigation before condemning or stereotyping an entire nation.
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Sept 28, 2005 22:43:58 GMT -5
Khangard, you shouldn't even bother. There's no sense in trying to change the minds of people who have already convinced themselves that they are right.
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Post by Hairless on Sept 28, 2005 23:04:54 GMT -5
Khangard, you shouldn't even bother. There's no sense in trying to change the minds of people who have already convinced themselves that they are right. I agree with that. But I did want those things stated for other readers who may believe twisted media images. It's easier to NOT think critically about the sources of information so many people just accept what their hear or want to believe. For anyone interested, this site has very good coverage of the diversity of American religion and the many different types of Chrisitianity (in name or practice) as well. They explain how the data is derived and analyzed, too, so you can make your own decisions about whether it has scientifical and ethical merit. If you want to make informed comments about this issue I suggest clicking around and rading some of the links www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm
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omegaspan
Full Member
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Post by omegaspan on Sept 29, 2005 6:45:29 GMT -5
Im impressed. Listen, i dont doubt your personal honest intentions and you re maybe the best girl in the world and all that other nice things teenagers say to each other in american movies lol. But sometimes simply belonging to a group of people, is enough to put a kind of "curse" upon you.....if you know what i mean..
Oh, those poor poor American "people".... living luxuriously and carelessly on the blood and sweat of the rest of the planet....
Frankly, there are no "people" in history. There are races and tribes, who act according to their inner and outer beliefs and characteristics. Each nation has the selected leaders and the select few that it deserves and that reflect the overall character of the folk-flock. If people do not rebel against their supposedly "evil" selected few leaders, then they are actually too happy with their living and their society, OR too sleepy to do anything. In both cases its their fault.
There are no American "people". Even the so called Democrats were protesting for example for the permission of gay-marriages, instead, for example for the ending of their f**cking country's global warfares........people who care more about their assholes' sodomizing than the international butchery their nation is performing....
So there are no "people"......and if there are they are so stupid and brainwashed that they are below the point of being called "people", but rather a worthless flock.
I dont see how that could make a difference. As i said before your only chance is Buddhism reaching above 50%. Follow the example of Richard Gear!
Yes, thats true. Believe it freely. But at least its just some wothless regulations on a national level, nothing serious or comparable to what we re talking about..
Greek anti-democratic supression? Whats that?
The model for American policies in Southeast Asia? What the hell are you talking about?
Unlike you i dont have to.
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 29, 2005 9:29:23 GMT -5
***You*** live in a fantasy land if you really think that anything other than money (big corporations) and a select powerful few have a chokehold on democracies throughout the world. If you choose to believe $$$$$-controlled media sources and trying to rile you up then that is your own ignorance. You and all the other Americans who have claimed here they live in a land controlled by a cupola of billionaires still have to give an hint of an hint of a reason for what they affirm except thatn they "don't see racial truths exposed on private tv" (that was not you but Seizure and Drooperdoo). Btw can you tell me how comes all the rest is brainwashed by the media and you only can still think with your head?
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Post by asdf on Sept 29, 2005 17:47:36 GMT -5
Again, there are other examples like Christmas. And no one's brainwashed. But there's little to be done about it. 70% or more of Americans wanted the border to be millitarized immediately to gaurd against illegal immigration. The issue has only grown in importance since then, but the media coverage is hardly porportional.
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geo
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hellene
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Post by geo on Oct 4, 2005 10:23:38 GMT -5
Freedom is an illusion in all countries. Like 'democracy'. Freedom of choice, or Freedom of selection? The only freedom now, sadly, is that of the product. Very short and very true. Its plain we cannot generalize like 'all the americans are' etc. Lets make the example of our own, where even if our country is far smaller and thus our parliamentism far more 'sensitive' and 'flexible', we still get minimal participation over the governmental choice.
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