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Post by Hairless on Sept 23, 2005 19:09:04 GMT -5
I read your sentence. It's just based on ignorance about the religious characteristics of America's people. A very tiny percentage are the weirdo "Christians" with a lot of clout. Oh so i am ignorant, am I? As you can see, i was asking a question, meaning i dont know too much about the subject i was asking about. Enlighten me if you will, but why do you have to offend me by talking to me as a dissapointed wife? Its not even our honeymoon yet baby! hahah - well ... you introduced your question by inferring that most Americans are affiliated willingly with that scary strain of religious politics. first, the idea that U.S. is a Christian nation is only part true. In name, most people are various types of Christian, including Catholic, Orthodox and many types of Protestant, etc. but also many are not officially religious or are one of many, many, many other religions. I could go outside in a bikini and worship a dog turd if I wanted and people would merely think I am strange second, the "freaky" Christians you see on the news are a tiny minority that end up manipulating polls by doing a lot of research and basically manipulating people through their fears (people in this case being some of the aforementioned Christians). Yes, they are scary - in part because it is hard to imagine someone that cluless and also because they use their influence to rile up other people (I will also add that all of the ones you see on tv have very strange beehive or teased hair and wear way too much makeup - it would be amusing if it were not so scary). I don't think the freaks are even that religious, it is more politics masked as religion. I have met some people that actually do believe crap like "we are marching under the flag of Christ, let's attack Iraq" but that is not common. third, the religious "freaks" bear no resemblance (as others have said) to the beliefs of the founders of U.S. .... although they claim to be representing the "original ideals of the forefathers. As you may have read, there is constant struggle to keep religion divorced from politics and many jurisdictions that keep trying to sneak it back in (for example people hanging Ten Commandments on courthouse walls) What you see as the "freaky" Christians doing nasty things on behalf of the American people is a relatively small group whp manipulate media and public opinion by throwing out weird catch phrases about "morality" that appeal to various Christian groups who feel the U.S. and world in general. Sadly, people are stirred by their fears and not everyone takes time to try and find less-biased media (if that even exists). Obviously, you ask, then where did all these people come from that voted for officials that do this crap? Well, many are less-radical people that are actually religious and "scared" into thinking that is the best option -- now that they see what happened many regret their votes. Also, as you must have heard, many people have serious doubts about the integrity of past elections. We cannot trust our media to be honest, it is too tied up with money and politics and the alternative chpices are harder to find and verify. Finally, if you look at who voted what (we have exit polls that relay many statistics about areas that voted certain ways during elections), there is a high correlation between less-educated people that tend to fall for that type of thing. Now don't think this is just America. All over the world this kind of crap happens. America (as an economic and military entity) just happens to have a lot of clout at this time in history and does not want to let it go, and has opportunity to abuse that power (need I remind you America also has done/is doing many good things that people seem to forget). But don't assume that the average American stands behind those actions or has drastic religious views as are being spouted by some of the religious wackos that are closely tied with some in power.
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Post by phrost on Sept 24, 2005 16:22:03 GMT -5
What make you so sure of it? More and more people each year are being drawn to it. It's happening, and I'm not talking about High School rebellious teens who think Wicca is evil, and therefore cool. Franklin was part of the Hellfire Club, and Washington was a Freemason deist as well. Franklin was never a official member of the HellfireClub though. Yes Washington was also a Freemason.
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Matthew
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Post by Matthew on Sept 24, 2005 23:41:33 GMT -5
Are you sure?
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Post by asdf on Sept 25, 2005 2:03:17 GMT -5
I was riding with Mr. Potts near to the Valley Forge where the army lay during the war of ye Revolution, when Mr. Potts said, 'Do you see that woods & that plain? There laid the army of Washington. It was a most distressing time of ye war, and all were for giving up the Ship but that great and good man. In that woods (pointing to a close in view) I heard a plaintive sound as of a man at prayer. I tied my horse to a sapling & went quietly into the woods. To my astonishment I saw the great George Washington on his knees alone, with his sword on one side and his cocked hat on the other. He was at Prayer to the God of the Armies, beseeching to interpose with his Divine aid, as it was ye Crisis & the cause of the country, of humanity & of the world. Such a prayer I never heard from the lips of man. I left him alone praying. I went home & told my wife. We never thought a man could be a soldier & a Christian, but if there is one in the world, it is Washington. We thought it was the cause of God & America could prevail. Source: Eyewitness testimony of Isaac Potts, a Valley Forge resident who shared the following story with the Rev. Nathaniel Randolph Snowden (1770-1851), who then recorded it in his "Diary and Remembrances." I'm not participating in this conversation exactly. I just like teh picture.
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Matthew
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Post by Matthew on Sept 25, 2005 10:44:50 GMT -5
There were always references to Washington as being more religious, but many of the others were deists.
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omegaspan
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????? ??????? ??????, ??????? ??????
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Post by omegaspan on Sept 26, 2005 8:36:28 GMT -5
hahah - well ... you introduced your question by inferring that most Americans are affiliated willingly with that scary strain of religious politics. Yes baby. And i have every right to introduce my question in that maner, making a logical hypothesis based on your foreign policy. So? The official government line is bloody christianity. Thats an interesting perspective Minority or not, they are the ones who run the show. So i am actually right! You mean that bunch of Freemasons? So, once again we reach the point when one question arises: Are the American people responsible for their country's doings? The result is what really matters. There are American people who agree with the policy of taking over the world. There are American people who disagree but dont reallly care. There are American people who disagree and try to do something about it. But, the result is what really matters. Are there people in America that are honestly good people, not responsible for their governments doings? I m sure there are. Were there German people in Nazi Germany that were honestly good people, not responsible for their governments doings? I m sure there were..
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Post by molika on Sept 26, 2005 10:33:00 GMT -5
Most of the founding fathers sincerely believed the tenets of orthodox Christianity. The few who had reservations about certain doctrines recognized the positive influence the Christian religion had on society. They all agreed that, in Washington's words, "national morality (cannot) prevail in exclusion of religious principle." They realized that the only way a free society can exist is among a highly religious and moral people. The Reasonableness of Critics. members.aol.com/jasonte2/reason.htm
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Post by Drooperdoo on Sept 26, 2005 10:37:58 GMT -5
America is, for all intents and puposes, a Christian nation. The country was founded by Western European Christians, and, to this day, remains about 95% Christian. Even if people aren't actively worshipping or part of a church, about 95% of the populace celebrates Christian holidays like Christmas and Easter, and has some form of Sunday school or church in their past. After all, that 95% comes from Christian backgrounds, and--even if later they disavow it--this heritage colors their culture and world-view. In fact, according to every major poll Americans are just about the most "religious" industrialized nation on Earth--in marked contrast to, say, Western Europe and Scandinavia. It's only been recently--now that certain non-Christian minorities in America have gained political power--that a sort of Christian suppression has taken place. "Merry Christmas" is all but outlawed in favor of the vaguer "Happy Holidays". Equal time is given to other holidays that aren't statistically "equal". I mean, 99% of blacks are Christian, yet they put Kwanzaa up as if all blacks celebrated it. In fact, about 1% of them do. Furthermore, blacks are 12% of the nation, not 50%. So only 1% of that 12% celebrates Kwanzaa at all--yet its pomoted as if it's statistically comparable to Christmas (and it's not). Hannukah, too, is the celebration of Jews, who are about 2% of the population. I cherish a respect for all cultures and believe that the other holidays should be mentioned. But there's a difference between including the minority-religions and submitting to pressure when the minority demands that "Merry Christmas" should no longer be used. As someone of a Christian background, I would feel chauvinistic if I went into Israel and demanded that, due to their 2% Christian population, they refrain from mention of all Jewish holidays. That they stop televising Passover or Rosh Hoshanah. Yet in America that's what's happening. Ah, the tyranny of the minority. That's not exactly how democracy is supposed to work. But let's deal with reality. Countries are run by money, not democracy. Capitalism and democracy are not synonymous. Democracy is a political system, capitalism is an economic system. And economics are what rule the world. Capitalism is NOT democratic. It's built on a more tyrannical model--the majority must do what the minority on top demand. And that's why our Western countries are in the state they're in: Disproportionate influence from people out of the mainstream. P.S.--For the record, I think all religions are irrational and silly. But, if others subscribe to them, it's polite to respect them. I mean, why move to Scandinavia if you're going to be offended by blond hair; or why move to Africa if you don't want to see black people. Likewise, it's obnoxious to move to America and to be offended when someone says "Merry Christmas". Just be respectful of the majority culture--as you would expect them to be if they went to Israel, or China, or Mecca.
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Post by Curious6 on Sept 26, 2005 15:19:14 GMT -5
Don't exaggerate, since when is the term 'Christmas' taboo in the US?
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 26, 2005 16:56:28 GMT -5
Capitalism is NOT democratic. It's built on a more tyrannical model--the majority must do what the minority on top demand. How is this majority forced to obey the fat cats? What did you do today unwillingly under D. Trump orders? And instead the other more democratic economic systems are ...?
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Post by asdf on Sept 26, 2005 18:07:38 GMT -5
Are you kidding me? You think for example a fair discussion about human biodiversity such as one on this board would be allowed on television? No, companies would lose money because that would offend some mythical minority, so it's not allowed. The only thing I've EVER heard on television, and I watch a lot of news and political shows, about the growing muslim population in Europe was at the last ten minutes of Dennis Miller's show where the man who play Gilmi son of Gloim in LOTR was complaining about it. Miller asks why can't a conversation on something like this be had in this country, but we all know the answer to that. Americans don't even realize there is a huge muslim population in Europe. All the media let's us know is what we saw on the movie Eurotrip. A child dressed as Santa Claus in trouble at "holiday party"--- www.vdare.com/misc/041223_christmas_p15.htm
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Post by Drooperdoo on Sept 26, 2005 19:46:19 GMT -5
Seizure makes an excellent point. Corporations would never allow discussions of biodiversity on television because it would offend minorities. (Oddly, though, they have no problem with airing shows that make fun of Caucasians, using terms like "white trash," etc.) Who cares if the majority of the country is Caucasian. It's okay to be racially insensitive to them. What could be more in vogue? Likewise, they have no problem promoting homosexuality, shoving it down the throats of cornfed Middle-Americans to "teach" them. And does capitalism drive the propaganda? --Not at all. Ellen Degeneres had a top-ten show before coming out as a homosexual. Then every show she did revolved around her genitals--and the ratings plummeted because her desired Middle American audience no longer identified with her. Same with Rosie O'Donnell. She had a very high-rated show. Then the same pattern followed: She revealed her private life, and her ratings tanked. Yet here's the thing: Despite these women's ratings dropping through the floor, corporations keep giving them shows, offering them lucrative commercial deals. Yet their audiences left them. So why are the corporations still backing them? The answer: The market doesn't always drive what's promoted. So what if certain lifestyles offend 85% of society? --Shove it down their throat anyway--until they're good and "conditioned". They must be "taught". Brainwashed. So that's the problem I have with it: They live in fear of offending 5% of society, and don't give a crap about offending the other 95%. Biodiversity is out; stupid bullshit is in--regardless of how many might be offended by it.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Sept 26, 2005 20:05:56 GMT -5
O'Donnell was a piece of shit completly..when she made that attack against Tom Selleck that was pure bullshit!
The USA is mostly Protestant by the way.
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Post by Hairless on Sept 27, 2005 2:10:33 GMT -5
hahah - well ... you introduced your question by inferring that most Americans are affiliated willingly with that scary strain of religious politics. Yes baby. And i have every right to introduce my question in that maner, making a logical hypothesis based on your foreign policy. So? The official government line is bloody christianity. Thats an interesting perspective Minority or not, they are the ones who run the show. So i am actually right! You mean that bunch of Freemasons? So, once again we reach the point when one question arises: Are the American people responsible for their country's doings? The result is what really matters. There are American people who agree with the policy of taking over the world. There are American people who disagree but dont reallly care. There are American people who disagree and try to do something about it. But, the result is what really matters. Are there people in America that are honestly good people, not responsible for their governments doings? I m sure there are. Were there German people in Nazi Germany that were honestly good people, not responsible for their governments doings? I m sure there were.. I'd like to be idealistic, but sadly we are not in control of this "democracy" no matter how much it is celebrated and its virtues repeated ad nauseum. And it's not just Americans who have blinders on, so don't get on your high horse just yet. As for what to do about it... that's a much harder question. Various groups are trying to address it in different ways. Certainly U.S. power will wane in coming decades and then we can have a new network of power for everyone to complain about, if we are even allowed to do that.
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 27, 2005 2:42:46 GMT -5
Seizure makes an excellent point. Corporations would never allow discussions of biodiversity on television because it would offend minorities. So in the end the thing you both are complaining about is that private own television doesn't broadcast shows you think they should broadcast?
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