Forget Religion For a Second & Just Consider This

[mike2]

We often get caught up in personal arguments about religion and of course the specifics are always debatable because everyone has a certain point of view.

But maybe the question is much simpler. And I think this question is: Do you believe in good and evil?

[nockwasright]

I believe there are things that most humans in most of the place and most of the times would consider evil (but not all humans in all places and all times).

And I believe such thing is wired in our humanity, it's not cultural. But it's not absolute either.

[geo]

Forget good and evil for a second & just consider this.

In the forest during winter food is sparce. Little animals have to dig their food out of the snow while bigger animals have to spend all their time hunting.

Now a wolf sees a rabit and a wild chase begins. The wolf is getting closer to the rabbit and the tiny fragment of a second just before physical contact, time stops.

Events are likely to follow two alternative courses. Either the wolf succeeds in hitting the rabbit with his front foot. The rabbit is thrown to the side and stumbles. In a second, the wolf is on him and the rabbit dies.

Or the rabbit manages a strong leap on one of his manoeuvres that the wolf didn't expect. This startling causes the wolf to delay momentarily, and the rabbit to gain a few metres. But the wolf's strenght is not enough to catch him again. He quits the chase. His odds of succeeding the next time are diminishing. It is almost certain that in a few days he will die of hunger.

Now who can tell which of the two alternatives is good and which is evil?

The way we are learned with our pseudo-ethics is to take the side of the poor little rabbit (cute) that is running away from the teeth of the big bad wolf. For us, the big bad wolf is 'evil' and the rabbit is 'good'.

But for nature there's no good or evil, just another episode in the long continuance of the uniquely interwoven food chain, that paves the way for the existence and adaptation of life.

Has man found his way out of the food chain to be justified to characterize its procedures 'good' and 'evil'? Or is he just being hypocritical, covering with a pseudo-ethic his subconsious need to have the rabbit for himself?

I think it's the second. That's why i agree when the big religions of today are called hypocritical. They succeded in twisting the great truths of nature into comfortable pseudo-ethics and then used them in the worst manner they could, for idion ofelos, their own profit.

[nockwasright]

geo said:

The way we are learned with our pseudo-ethics is to take the side of the poor little rabbit (cute) that is running away from the teeth of the big bad wolf. For us, the big bad wolf is 'evil' and the rabbit is 'good'.

Actually, no. Imo your example is wrong as no one considers the wolf bad. Animals are always been considered in all moral systems, and also in common knolwledge, innocent, byond good and evil.
Monkeys proved to have a "moral" though (the thing is controversial however).

[Crimson Guard]

I am Evil!

I'am Scorpio and the Dog,Wolf,Eagle and Phoenix are all part of my personality. ;D

[Ponto Hardbottle]

I am Scorpio too. Surprise, surprise eh. Look, we humans make moral judgements and ascribe good and evil things to otherwise normal mundane actions. One man's good is another's evil. The main thing is to live according to your concepts of good and evil, not those imposed on you or belong to others. And be prepared to suffer for your individuality.

There is an old dichotomy. Evil is more powerful than good. That Star Wars stuff. And it is true. The power of the dark side overrides everything, as Winston found out in 1984, or the savage in Brave New World.

P.S I am actually Libran, but close enough to the M with the phallic point.

[mike2]

I'm Scorpio, but that doesn't mean shite.

[geo]

nockwasright said:

Actually, no. Imo your example is wrong as no one considers the wolf bad. Animals are always been considered in all moral systems, and also in common knolwledge, innocent, byond good and evil.

Look again!

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."
Matt.7.15

"Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves."
Luke.10.3

"Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves"
Matt.10.16

"Yet the hireling, not also being shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, is beholding the wolf coming, and is leaving the sheep and fleeing. And the wolf is snatching them and is scattering the sheep."
John.10.12

"I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock"
Acts.20.29

[geo]

Now don't make me search for other animals, in this and other 'moral systems' as you call them.

[Mike the Jedi]

Wolves kill sheep. Sheep are beneficial to shepherds. Therefore wolves are pests. Thus the analogy. You are OWNED!

[Wadaad]

"good" and "evil" are IMO human creations. good/evil is the crux of morality, what truly seperates us from the animals besides the opposable thumb and our ability to speak.

Because its a human creation, does this mean that the universe operates without good and evil? well lemme just say...the concept of good/evil, lets call it "Morality" is to help man and only man, in applying as adeptly as possible his evolutionary advantage...Intellect. Now, intellect is not unique to the human, it is quite well developed in a number of other animals. Intellect developed as a control over instincts...and later on, Morality developed as a sort of HIGHWAY that guides intellect to its desired effect. Just like on HWY 401, theres eastbound and westbound traffic, if the certain Man's goal is to head east, than a cognizant decision will be to take 401 EAST. Intellect directs man to the road, and his morality directs him to which path to take. It becomes "Good" for him to take the east route...and "Bad" for him to take the west route...

Then lets remember that man is designed to modify any behavior that would normally be instinctive to one that would provide optimum benefit (survivability). This process is called self-control or self-discipline. Self-discipline, is the measuring stick of the human. The more disciplined behavior (behavior determined by intellect) displayed by the individual, the more human he becomes as well as more "good" "kind" "nice" "smart" "cool" etc. The less disciplined behavior (behavior in response to instinct) displayed by an individual, the more he becomes like the animals that are lacking in intellect and are driven by their instincts. This is why you dont start dry-humping a random woman just because your instinct tells you its time to get it on, lol. This is why also, our basest, deepest feelings (instinct) more often than not, are considered bad, and a proper Man never reacts or does things on impulse...its all to maintain self-control and composure, something quite advantageous in the long run for that particular person.

[Wadaad]

mike2 said:

I'm Scorpio, but that doesn't mean shite.

yeah, but still I bet its cooler being a Scorpio than a Virgo

[Ponto Hardbottle]

Why? People have odd ideas about Scorpios. The point about the wolves is that they, are neither good nor evil, it is humans who anthropomorphisize the wolves actions to be evil.

[Mike the Jedi]

I don't think good and evil applies to nature. Nature is by its very nature, a neutral thing.

[Educate Me]

holyjesus said:

I am Scorpio too. Surprise, surprise eh. Look, we humans make moral judgements and ascribe good and evil things to otherwise normal mundane actions. One man's good is another's evil. The main thing is to live according to your concepts of good and evil, not those imposed on you or belong to others. And be prepared to suffer for your individuality.

There is an old dichotomy. Evil is more powerful than good. That Star Wars stuff. And it is true. The power of the dark side overrides everything, as Winston found out in 1984, or the savage in Brave New World.

P.S I am actually Libran, but close enough to the M with the phallic point.

Nah, the savage in the brave new world already had wars, human sacrifices and genocidal campaigns before they had found anything.

Men are evil everywhere, I think we are getting less evil with time though.