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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 14, 2006 4:31:50 GMT -5
In this way many famous Prussian families of Polish (or Kaschubian/Pomeranian, Silesian) descent can be mentioned: Von Seydlitz (Siedlicz), Von Lewinski (Manstein), von Bronikowski, von Brauchitsch (Brochwicz), von Blaskowitz, von Sydow (Zydow), von Clausewitz or less known von Kurowski, Twardowski, Olszewski, Chodowiecki, Prondzynski etc., literally hundreds of nobles. In Die Galitzien, we have to look to the identifiable village names, which change acording to whether Poles, Germans, or Hungarians have produced the map. Incidently,The Rus had the swastika on it's Uniate crosses way before Hitler came up with it. I'm sure others have a more profound grasp of the situation. And they say New York is a helluvah town!: ukr-ww2.onestop.net/color.htmlSomething for the kids: ukr-ww2.onestop.net/ss_youth.htmlAnd if you're doing the Role Playing Game: 1st SS PANZER DIVISION "LEIBSTANDARTE ADOLF HITLER" ukr-ww2.onestop.net/lah.htmlYou've got to be Polish, Right? It's true, many Ukrainians volunteered for the Germans war effort. But so did Many Russians, no matter how much the Russian govt and hence public denies it. You Poles were unique, and you still are, but I don't any reason to attack Ukrainians.
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 14, 2006 20:15:51 GMT -5
You've got to be Polish, Right? It's true, many Ukrainians volunteered for the Germans war effort. But so did Many Russians, no matter how much the Russian govt and hence public denies it. You Poles were unique, and you still are, but I don't any reason to attack Ukrainians. Actually, I was refering to my mother's family, who were Galizien-Rus, from Lemberg (Lviv). They were considered part of a favored minority, a "proto_German" tribe or some such nonsense. They and the Hutsuls were recruited directly into main SS formations (14th Freiwllige Grenadiers were something else again ). My mother's family actually had it good under the Reichs General Government, and prospered. The Galicians were happy to have both the Poles and the Soviets off their backs. I would only expect residual hostility from Poles, even though the region was heavily Polonized. I wasn't trying to indict any single group. In fact, some two million Ukrainians were enslaved and brought to the Greater Reich, just several years after Stalin starved them in an artificial famine. Despite the emoticons and snyde remarks, I was just being expository. Things were so horrible in this little patch of Europe that it starts to become difficult to blame anyone except those on all sides who still justify their atrocities while hiding behind the atrocities done to their people. The stuff I'm pointing to was commited by my mother's people. All I can really say is "holy shit!," even after all these years.
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 15, 2006 1:34:53 GMT -5
I took the posting of the galician SS as being derogatory to the "Nazi" Galicians. Which I see wasn't fair, as your mother is galician. I also noticed the shield you were using as an avatar as well, but wasn't sure what to make of it.
Now I see what you mean. And You're completely right in that. Being that it was so terrible, that grouping specific groups together isn't fair at all. Though, even today, many do use it to "indict specific groups" i.e., Russians using it for their own political gains in the Baltic's. Even though they had more than a million enlist for the Germans... I guess it's easy to pass them off a "traitors".
The only reason I had perceived you wrong, is because my former Girl friend Sasha had a relative whom joined the Waffen-SS and was executed after "keelhaul". When I was first told by her, I myself had a very unfair perception of what exactly that meant [my relatives fought for England's agenda] to the point where when I was told I intrinsically felt it was deserved. Which couldn't be more wrong. Which is the same unfair perception many still have.
I believe that the elevating of some minorities such as the Galicians, was basically just a method to subvert polish society. Since that was the main goal: Cut off the head "intelligentsia" and subdue the body. which is probably a lot easier to subdue with infighting, seeing as Polish nationalism was extremely potent and anti-German. After all, most if not all poles were given the opportunity to sign the "volksliste" and be elevated to a social class equal to that as the volksdeutsche. Although, hardly any poles signed it, since it would warrant execution by the Home Army.
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Post by Polako on Jan 15, 2006 5:01:24 GMT -5
Some surnames violate rules of Polish orthography, Ditka should be "Dytka", but often things were respelled upon emigration. So, outside of Poland you find names like "Pollack" or "Salosny" both from Chile. Bismark I believe was aware of his family's Polish connection, by way of Szlachta from the region of Gdansk Pommerania. As far as I know, he had no problem with it. His anti-Polishness stemmed from his ideology of creating a mono-ethnic state, and a state fully under control of a central government, therefore his problem with Catholics (he hated the independence of Catholic schools) and ethnic minorities, of whom Poles were the largest in the German Reich. He was just as much against Danes having a separate ethnic identity in Northern Schleswig. . There's no doubt he was extremely hostile to Poland. But during that era nationalist aggressive tendencies wasn't all that unique. Ever heard of Roman Dmowski? The only difference is they were able to unite many of the german states under Prussian leadership. If only the lechs czechs and rus' had, history may be different. But then again, Germany only existed for like 60 some years before being cut in half. Gretzky was ethnic Russian. His relatives came from belarus and ukraine. Here's a czech website that confirms it. world.ohf.cz/blr/Gretzky is Polish, and says so all the time in public. slam.canoe.ca/GretzkyHall/nov23_nelson.html fellow inductee Scotty Morrison was amusing the assembled media by describing his plan to wear a kilt to the evening's performance -- and then daring them to ask what was under it -- Gretzky interjected: "Thank goodness I'm Polish."
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 15, 2006 5:16:41 GMT -5
I know that his mother, whom died recently, was English. But most websites I read said his fathers family had roots in Pidhaitse, Ukraine, and Mogilev Belarus. I never heard any mention of Poland.
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Post by Polako on Jan 15, 2006 5:24:05 GMT -5
I know that his mother, whom died recently, was English. But most websites I read said his fathers family had roots in Pidhaitse, Ukraine, and Mogilev Belarus. I never heard any mention of Poland. I know plenty of Poles who's families come from western Ukraine and Belarus. In fact, part of my family comes from Belarus, and I can assure you I am Polish.
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 15, 2006 19:39:27 GMT -5
I believe that the elevating of some minorities such as the Galicians, was basically just a method to subvert polish society. Since that was the main goal: Cut off the head "intelligentsia" and subdue the body. which is probably a lot easier to subdue with infighting, seeing as Polish nationalism was extremely potent and anti-German. After all, most if not all poles were given the opportunity to sign the "volksliste" and be elevated to a social class equal to that as the volksdeutsche. Although, hardly any poles signed it, since it would warrant execution by the Home Army. Oh, there was OUN, etc. Not a good time was had by all. It's just very strange, but true to say, that if wasn't for the SS my children wouldn't be here today.
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 16, 2006 0:58:03 GMT -5
I believe that the elevating of some minorities such as the Galicians, was basically just a method to subvert polish society. Since that was the main goal: Cut off the head "intelligentsia" and subdue the body. which is probably a lot easier to subdue with infighting, seeing as Polish nationalism was extremely potent and anti-German. After all, most if not all poles were given the opportunity to sign the "volksliste" and be elevated to a social class equal to that as the volksdeutsche. Although, hardly any poles signed it, since it would warrant execution by the Home Army. Oh, there was OUN, etc. Not a good time was had by all. It's just very strange, but true to say, that if wasn't for the SS my children wouldn't be here today. The Volyn conflict was particularly dreadfull to hear about. All in all, it's just a really sad story for everyone. I just don't see why people would still want to be hostile about it though, and use it politically.
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 16, 2006 1:19:01 GMT -5
I believe that the elevating of some minorities such as the Galicians, was basically just a method to subvert polish society. Since that was the main goal: Cut off the head "intelligentsia" and subdue the body. which is probably a lot easier to subdue with infighting, seeing as Polish nationalism was extremely potent and anti-German. After all, most if not all poles were given the opportunity to sign the "volksliste" and be elevated to a social class equal to that as the volksdeutsche. Although, hardly any poles signed it, since it would warrant execution by the Home Army. Oh, there was OUN, etc. Not a good time was had by all. It's just very strange, but true to say, that if wasn't for the SS my children wouldn't be here today. Galicians was a poor example on my part. The favoruring of others in Poland like the Górale, Lemki, Kashubs, etc., is more what I meant. Polish highlanders proposed flag.... strange....
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Post by henerte on Jan 16, 2006 5:37:23 GMT -5
Joseph Conrad (December 3, 1857 – August 3, 1924) was a Polish-born British novelist. Some of his works have been labelled romantic, although Conrad's romanticism is tempered with irony and a fine sense of man's capacity for self-deception. Many critics have placed him as a forerunner of modernism. His most famous work is in fact that of "Heart of Darkness," which is a fine piece of literature still studied today in most modern senior high schools.
Conrad was born Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski (Nalecz Coat of Arms) in Berdyczów (Berdychiv), then Poland under Russian rule, now Ukraine. His father, an aristocrat, writer, and translator, was arrested by the Russian authorities in Warsaw for his activities in support of the 1863 insurrection, and was exiled to Siberia. His mother died of tuberculosis in 1865, as did his father four years later in Kraków, leaving Conrad orphaned at the age of eleven.
Guillaume Apollinaire (August 26, 1880 – November 9, 1918) was a poet, writer, and art critic. The foremost French poet of the early 20th century, he is credited with coining the word surrealism and writing one of the earliest works described as surrealist, the play Les Mamelles de Tirésias (1917). Two years after being wounded in World War I, he died at 38 of the Spanish flu during a pandemic.
Born Wilhelm Albert Vladimir Apollinaris de Kostrowitzky/Kostrowicki in Rome, Italy, and raised speaking French, among other languages, he immigrated to France and adopted the name Guillaume Apollinaire. His mother, born Angelica Kostrowicka, (Waz Coat of Arms) was a Pole from Szlachta born near Nowogródek (now in Belarus). His father is unknown but may have been Francesco Flugi d'Aspermont, a Swiss-Italian aristocrat who disappeared early from Apollinaire's life.
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 16, 2006 13:23:50 GMT -5
Galicians was a poor example on my part. The favoruring of others in Poland like the Górale, Lemki, Kashubs, etc., is more what I meant. Polish highlanders proposed flag.... strange.... I can only think that the flag is some Trans-Carpathian artifact. Galicia is extremely difficult being it was ground zero. Being a borderland and at the top of Podillia and adjacent to the Sarmatian plain, and including Opolonia, the Halych population became outnumbered by the the 19th century. It's taken me over a year to sift through resource material to get some sort of picture that doesn't include someone elses thumb print In my investigations, I've found my maternal family's name to be spelled eight different ways. Two in Polish, Two in German, one each in current Ukrainian, Polonized Rus, Hungarian, and Preuss!
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Post by annienormanna on Jan 16, 2006 15:47:54 GMT -5
I think your absolutely, historically accurate in your aboe description, by the way. In Opolonia that is exactly what happened. This was *the* policy towards Reichs minorities in general. But what it did require was collaboration *and* Germanicization *within* the minority thereby creating, socially engineering, a thousand year Reich. According to land secessioning up until then, a people would have to mingle with a succeding majority. In Galicia, it was not unusual to have families stretching out into three different churchs. A typical arraingement would be Uniate, Othodox, Catholic (Hungarian). The Reichs policy acceded to a strong Hungarian minority and those who were Cosmopolitan-Austrian orientated. Stephan Bandera, the intellectuals, and the gentry of Galician-Rus Lemberg held meetings and then militia training and instigations within the Reich starting in 1940. When the SS swept into Galicia it was greated with flowers to the east, yet there was a Night of the Long Knives against the Opolonians in Krakow. This cleaved Galicia reigniting Halych identity.
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Post by OdinofOssetia on Jan 17, 2006 17:34:13 GMT -5
Three infamous men with polish roots. Bronislaw Kaminski, ROA SS "hiwi" brigade commander Otto Skorzeny, SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Eric Von Dem Back-Zelewski, SS-Obergruppenfuehrer of german troops during the Warsaw uprising. Kaminski - Russian-born of Polish-German parentage; not really Polish. Skorzeny - surname is Slavic indeed, not Hungarian as some falsely claim, but never heard of any Polish ancestry he had. von Zelewski (he changed his surname to von dem Bach, because Zelewski "sounded too Polish" ;D) - of ethnic German nobility from Western Pomerania.
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Post by vgambler33 on Jan 18, 2006 1:21:06 GMT -5
Polish -American Baseball players, Carl Yaztremski, Phil And Joe Niekro.
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 18, 2006 14:31:55 GMT -5
Three infamous men with polish roots. Bronislaw Kaminski, ROA SS "hiwi" brigade commander Otto Skorzeny, SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Eric Von Dem Back-Zelewski, SS-Obergruppenfuehrer of german troops during the Warsaw uprising. Kaminski - Russian-born of Polish-German parentage; not really Polish. Skorzeny - surname is Slavic indeed, not Hungarian as some falsely claim, but never heard of any Polish ancestry he had. von Zelewski (he changed his surname to von dem Bach, because Zelewski "sounded too Polish" ;D) - of ethnic German nobility from Western Pomerania. Von Zelewski was kashubian noble family. Another Nazi with Kashubian nobility origins is Erich von Manstein (lewinsky).
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