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Post by nockwasright on Sept 5, 2005 9:35:27 GMT -5
The New Orleans' looting really is unthinkable in any European city, from Lisbon to St. Petersburg. Ain't it so? Any idea about why?
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Post by CooCooCachoo on Sept 5, 2005 12:48:14 GMT -5
New Orleans looting is largely a product of class/race division. The predominantly Blacks you see looting live below the poverty line, and don't really feel part of the system. Many are on government assistance, and New Orleans, although a very historical city, is not the most economicly vibrant city.
Keep in mind too that many don't see what their doing as a crime. There's a general belief that Insurance companies will compensate businesses, so the theft is no more than a few pennies from many insurance payers. ...Just like Gas Price gouging is only stealing $5-$10 per person over Labor Day weekend.
I definitely think this kind of thing could happen in Europe. You could easily see this kind of thing happen in places with poverty, like in Romania, if wealthy department stores set up shop, and the locals could see merchandise they could not readily afford, and had no foreseeable way of being able to readily afford.
Racial and Economic tensions at work my friend. ...Many feel that it's part of the reason relief efforts are taking so long as well.
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Post by Marobud on Sept 5, 2005 13:40:15 GMT -5
I was watching it at CNN and at German news TVs. It seems to me that there was a kind of racism there? When there was a terrible flood here in Czech Republic, there was a great mutual support among people, immediatelly! People were coming to region with water, dresses. People were organizing themselves at all levels of hierarchy, local firemen, local Red Crosses etc. Local radios were organizing things spontaneously. I do not understand that several days delay... Where were the firemen from surrounding regions? Where were those two-rotor military battle helicopters with water and military food boxes? It reminds me Dutch army in Bosnia: they were watching Serbians killing Bosnians. Dutch soldiers did nothing, I think because they were a bit racist "from outside". I know that Czech soldiers would enter between them, talking, convincing, doing something, because they would feel a bit Serbian and a bit Bosnian at the same time. I am quite fan of America, America did a lot of good for my country several times in history, but this matter really surprised me... But perhaps it just looks so...
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Matthew
Full Member
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Posts: 230
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Post by Matthew on Sept 5, 2005 14:03:02 GMT -5
We have alot of good people here, but our government isn't.
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Post by Funky Kong on Sept 5, 2005 14:11:39 GMT -5
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Post by henerte on Sept 5, 2005 20:47:27 GMT -5
The New Orleans' looting really is unthinkable in any European Was that sarcasm???
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Post by Ilmatar on Sept 6, 2005 0:56:30 GMT -5
All I can say that nothing like this happened in Thailand after the recent tsunami. There were thousands of my countrymen in the area when the disaster stroke. They unanimously tell the same story: The locals were very helpful, often gave all they had left in order to help the tourists and each other. Now, the help might have been geniuinly altruistic or it might have been slightly calculated. In any case it has certainly helped to raise goodwill and even to bring the tourists back to the area.
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 6, 2005 2:59:11 GMT -5
The New Orleans' looting really is unthinkable in any European Was that sarcasm??? No, I am serious. Why, do you think that could happen in an European city? Could it happen in Varsaw? To my knowledge nothing similar happened in Europe in postwar times. Actually there is not description of such savage looting even during the WWII. If someone has any differet information, that would be welcome. @funk Monk: I don't see any reference to looting in the link posted. It' very hard to me to picture the Dutch looting, actually if there is any doubt this may happen is for Southern and Eastern Europe. Northern (and I think central) Europe has almost the behavioral standards of Japan (see Kobe). CooCooCachoo: Heartquakes in Southern Italy , even if happened in areas that are very backward under any point of view, did not result in looting. Ah, do the perpetrators also think the insurance companies will unrape the raped women? @mattew: I do not doubt American are good people. But I don't really see how the government can be blamed for the behaviour of the citizens of New Orleans (it can be blamed for other things, obviously). Basically what I meant is that the facts of New Orleans look like scenes from another world, a world were a conspicuos mass of people has not even minimally internalised the basics of civilisation, nor feels any connection with the society, and is actually prevented only by continuous coertion from going back to a homo homini lupus stage. And that this could not happen in Europe.
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Post by fm0210 on Sept 6, 2005 3:06:16 GMT -5
I was watching it at CNN and at German news TVs. It seems to me that there was a kind of racism there? When there was a terrible flood here in Czech Republic, there was a great mutual support among people, immediatelly! People were coming to region with water, dresses. People were organizing themselves at all levels of hierarchy, local firemen, local Red Crosses etc. Local radios were organizing things spontaneously. I do not understand that several days delay... Where were the firemen from surrounding regions? Where were those two-rotor military battle helicopters with water and military food boxes? It reminds me Dutch army in Bosnia: they were watching Serbians killing Bosnians. Dutch soldiers did nothing, I think because they were a bit racist "from outside". I know that Czech soldiers would enter between them, talking, convincing, doing something, because they would feel a bit Serbian and a bit Bosnian at the same time. I am quite fan of America, America did a lot of good for my country several times in history, but this matter really surprised me... But perhaps it just looks so... Don't compare Czech Republic to USA or any European country, I think your country is very special. I was in Prague when the flood happened and I was surprised about people's harmony and they were extremely kind and friendly with me. I thought I was in paradise
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omegaspan
Full Member
????? ??????? ??????, ??????? ??????
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Post by omegaspan on Sept 6, 2005 4:57:04 GMT -5
We have alot of good people here, but our government isn't. I guess i m a bit off the subject, but i bet thats exactly what the Iraqui folk under the Saddam Hussein administration would say! Does that mean the rest of the world must eliminate the Bush regime??
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Post by MC anunnaki on Sept 6, 2005 6:53:28 GMT -5
After the tsunami, rape and abduction of orphans occured in the chaos that followed, but we didn't hear about it that much here. The NO scenario with armed gangs and looting, well, I don't think that occured in Southeast Asia, at least not at such a large scale. I haven't heard of anything of the like either when that earthquake (killing an estimated 40 000 people) hit Bam in Iran.
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Post by Ilmatar on Sept 6, 2005 7:06:58 GMT -5
Well, considering the sad reputation Thailand has as a center of the (child) prostitution that wasn't such a big surprice. Many organisations immediately pointed out the need to help children in the zone so that they wouldn't fall in the hands of the rackets. But generally speaking people acted in a surpricingly calm and collected manner.
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Nist
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Nist on Sept 6, 2005 8:22:27 GMT -5
I bet things like these happened in the wake of the Tsunami in asia. We just didn't hear about it because all the news talked about the resorts.
I also wonder, How many percent are acctually looting. Most aren't.
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 6, 2005 9:26:45 GMT -5
Actually, I was comparing the USA only to Europe. The only Asian country with level of literacy and wealth comparable to the USA is Japan; I kept Japan out of the comparison for its unattainable high standard of behaviour under duress (Kobe).
What we are witnessing is that the most powerful nation on heart, that has also quite a lot of confidence in itself as a model of civilisation, is displaying citizens who seem to come directly from the middle age.
An intersting article on the subject: [ftp]http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell090605.asp[/ftp]
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Matthew
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Post by Matthew on Sept 6, 2005 14:45:09 GMT -5
@mattew: I do not doubt American are good people. But I don't really see how the government can be blamed for the behaviour of the citizens of New Orleans (it can be blamed for other things, obviously). Basically what I meant is that the facts of New Orleans look like scenes from another world, a world were a conspicuos mass of people has not even minimally internalised the basics of civilisation, nor feels any connection with the society, and is actually prevented only by continuous coertion from going back to a homo homini lupus stage. And that this could not happen in Europe. New Orleans, if you must know, was always a city with the problems of crime. Built also in a bad area (swampland). I went there back in '03, and I'm glad I did. I met my cousins, and I saw lots of things. Mind you, I'm not as gullible as some of my countrymen, I'm also not surprised that this happened. It was a city of great poverty, great crime, and much decadence among those who had money. The wealth disparity, and the general atmosphere of parts of the city... I didn't care too much for it, but I'm still glad I got to experience, feel, and see the history. It doesn't allow for the actions of some of people, namely the armed gangs. Alot of people were also trying to just live, so they were taking what they could to eat, and then there were the criminals, and gangster scum shooting and killing everything. So I'm not solely blaming the government. However, the government took it's sweet time sending the National Guard, and because of funding diverted to imperialist wars (Iraq) alot was never done to ameliorate the situation. Also, almost a century ago it was projected that N'awlins would have problems. In the US we have FEMA, so when a national disaster hits, the local forces Medical, Police, and Firefighters will come under Federal Control. The National Guard is also supposed to come in to deliver needed supplies, and sometimes the FBI to take command of the local security sources. Many of the police people in New Orleans left their posts, and their duties. Alot also stayed, and have been drafted to help the MP, and National Guard. The National Guard are also killing, and shooting the armed gangs, and protecting the US Army Engineer Corps. This also has it's faults because the government has the ultimate say over whether there is anybody going to the area to help. www.fema.gov/
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