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Post by recluse on Jul 9, 2004 4:17:11 GMT -5
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Post by eufrenio on Jul 9, 2004 16:12:40 GMT -5
I´ve read quite a bit on the subject (http://www.melungeons.com and other places), and from the information I´ve gleaned, the origin of the Melungeons is still confusing. The main components posited are: East-Mediterranean (Turkish, Jewish), "Barbary" Coast (North-African), Scotch-Irish, Amerindian, Black, sometimes Portuguese and even Gipsy. Whatever their ultimate origin, the group seems to have functioned in the latter centuries as a basket dump for mixed-race individuals neither assimilable in the Black or White groups, neither Indian in culture. Recluse, what is your opinion on their origins? A good summary can be found here: www.melungeons.com/articles/statemenkennedydec02.htm
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Post by buddyrydell on Jul 9, 2004 20:31:28 GMT -5
The story of the Melungeons is simply fascinating to me. It truly challenges the supposed ethnic/racial homogeneity of the Appalachian South and suggests that perhaps millions of whites who always thought they were just English or Scotch-Irish may actually may have significant Native American or sub-Saharan African ancestry without even knowing about it.
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Post by recluse on Jul 9, 2004 23:36:58 GMT -5
Eufrenio,
I just read the Kennedy statement and unless I missed something, he seems to be saying that after some preliminary DNA testing, they still don't know much more than they knew before. Those darn Portugese gene markers refuse to show up.
Since Kennedy says that the Melungeons are more of a cultural group than a racial group anyway, I don't see what all the fuss is about. If all the original Portugese and their descendants have died out, leaving only their contribution to the culture behind, no one is going to find anything in a DNA sample. This goes for any other group that the Melungeons claim. This has got to be one of the most undefined racial/ethnic groups ever. Eufrenio, buddyrydell and I could move to Virginia and proclaim "We're Melungeons." And I don't know how anyone could expose the fraud.
But Kennedy's preachy rhetoric reminded me about what all the fuss is about. Being a professional minority is a booming business these days and we Americans seem to have a bottomless pit of guilt about it and desire for atonement.
As to their origins, any of the speculations seems plausible enough. Runaway slaves, renegade Indians, escaped prisoners, and misfits of every race and ethnicity would have a good reason to try their luck on the frontier. I'm sure that your "basket dump" idea plays a big role in it.
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Post by captainusa1 on Jul 9, 2004 23:48:01 GMT -5
I probably have Melungeon ancestry on both sides of my family. I never even heard about Melungeons before I read about them in a magazine. I think that they originated in northern Africa, southern Europe, western Asia, and Atlantis (kidding). I think that they mixed more with Mongoloids than with Negroids, but I think that their base was Mediterranean.
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Post by captainusa1 on Jul 10, 2004 0:02:20 GMT -5
The story of the Melungeons is simply fascinating to me. It truly challenges the supposed ethnic/racial homogeneity of the Appalachian South and suggests that perhaps millions of whites who always thought they were just English or Scotch-Irish may actually may have significant Native American or sub-Saharan African ancestry without even knowing about it. The Appalachian region is different than the other regions of the South. The residents seem to have more Native American ancestry. They also have more German and Welsh ancestry than people whose ancestors settled in the lowland regions, although Thomas Jefferson had Welsh ancestry. There also was a significant number of Irish settlers in the region, although they have been ignored by the historians because of the higher number of Scots Irish settlers.
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Post by captainusa1 on Jul 10, 2004 0:20:08 GMT -5
Eufrenio, I just read the Kennedy statement and unless I missed something, he seems to be saying that after some preliminary DNA testing, they still don't know much more than they knew before. Those darn Portugese gene markers refuse to show up. Since Kennedy says that the Melungeons are more of a cultural group than a racial group anyway, I don't see what all the fuss is about. If all the original Portugese and their descendants have died out, leaving only their contribution to the culture behind, no one is going to find anything in a DNA sample. This goes for any other group that the Melungeons claim. This has got to be one of the most undefined racial/ethnic groups ever. Eufrenio, buddyrydell and I could move to Virginia and proclaim "We're Melungeons." And I don't know how anyone could expose the fraud. But Kennedy's preachy rhetoric reminded me about what all the fuss is about. Being a professional minority is a booming business these days and we Americans seem to have a bottomless pit of guilt about it and desire for atonement. As to their origins, any of the speculations seems plausible enough. Runaway slaves, renegade Indians, escaped prisoners, and misfits of every race and ethnicity would have a good reason to try their luck on the frontier. I'm sure that your "basket dump" idea plays a big role in it. I know what you mean. I was on a Melungeon mailing list, and some of the people embraced the politically correct idea of victim groups. I thought that they should live in the here and now. It's good to remember atrocities like the Lynchburg Project, but it's best to live in the present.
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Post by Ptolemy on Jul 10, 2004 11:38:49 GMT -5
I see a hint of AmerIndian in this person. Probably a Med/Native mix. Looks like a Mexican.
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Post by Graeme on Jul 10, 2004 12:34:10 GMT -5
He could be the result of negro/Amerindian/caucasoid cross. The people in those photos have wide spread eyes. I consider that a negro trait. The noses suggest negro also.
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Post by buddyrydell on Jul 10, 2004 20:58:42 GMT -5
In any case, it appears to me that people regarded as "Melungeons" would definitely stick out from what the average white U.S. southerner would look like. This of course would be due to alleged Native American, African, or Middle Eastern/North African ancestry.
Cap'n, I have a question for you. What are the most common physical types one would find among white southerners? Although I've visited the South a number of times, it's been quite awhile and as I'm not from there, I'd be interested in knowing. I assume British types are the most common, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
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izabet
Full Member
Canada isn't that friendly...
Posts: 128
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Post by izabet on Jul 10, 2004 21:08:33 GMT -5
A good friend of mine is from Florida and I suspect she has black ancestry. She is open to the idea and agrees that it's highly plausible. It's odd because she has blue/green eyes, black hair and very pale skin. She does have native american ancestry and some irish/french. She could very well be Melungeon.
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Post by captainusa1 on Jul 11, 2004 5:52:35 GMT -5
In any case, it appears to me that people regarded as "Melungeons" would definitely stick out from what the average white U.S. southerner would look like. This of course would be due to alleged Native American, African, or Middle Eastern/North African ancestry. Cap'n, I have a question for you. What are the most common physical types one would find among white southerners? Although I've visited the South a number of times, it's been quite awhile and as I'm not from there, I'd be interested in knowing. I assume British types are the most common, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm more familiar with the border regions than with the southern regions. The people in the border regions look like generic Americans to me. They often have a combination of different European ancestries. My guess is that British and Irish are predominant, though. Many of the people in the border states have dark hair and dark eyes, and I think that *some* of this is due to Melungeon and/or Native American ancestry. There were quite a few interracial marriages during the frontier era. You sometimes see families in which one child will have dark features and another child will have light features. I read that this is often the result of having both European and Native American genes. Like you, I'm not too familiar with Dixie, which is different than Melungeon territory. My guess is that the people in Dixie are mostly English with some Scots Irish, but I'm excluding Appalachia and parts of Florida, Louisiana, and Texas. I've noticed a marked difference in the appearance of English women and Southern women of English descent. I'm not totally sure why this is. I'm sorry if this didn't answer your question.
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Post by recluse on Jul 11, 2004 14:29:27 GMT -5
He could be the result of negro/Amerindian/caucasoid cross. The people in those photos have wide spread eyes. I consider that a negro trait. The noses suggest negro also. Interesting about the eye set. If true, that might be a handy way of distinguishing white-black-reds (Cubans, possibly Melungeons, etc.) from North Africans and West Asians.
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Post by recluse on Jul 11, 2004 14:34:46 GMT -5
I see a hint of AmerIndian in this person. Probably a Med/Native mix. Looks like a Mexican. I see your point. I had originally ruled that out on the basis of my ignorance about the phenotype of Amerindians in that area. I had just assumed that they would be more obviously mongoloid than the original people of Mexico, Guatemala, etc.
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Post by buddyrydell on Jul 11, 2004 16:04:56 GMT -5
I'm more familiar with the border regions than with the southern regions. The people in the border regions look like generic Americans to me. They often have a combination of different European ancestries. My guess is that British and Irish are predominant, though. Many of the people in the border states have dark hair and dark eyes, and I think that *some* of this is due to Melungeon and/or Native American ancestry. There were quite a few interracial marriages during the frontier era. You sometimes see families in which one child will have dark features and another child will have light features. I read that this is often the result of having both European and Native American genes. Like you, I'm not too familiar with Dixie, which is different than Melungeon territory. My guess is that the people in Dixie are mostly English with some Scots Irish, but I'm excluding Appalachia and parts of Florida, Louisiana, and Texas. I've noticed a marked difference in the appearance of English women and Southern women of English descent. I'm not totally sure why this is. I'm sorry if this didn't answer your question. Thanks Cap'n. I actually have a cousin who lives in Texas for much of the year and he says that most white Texans are blondish or at least more northern-European looking, and that British/Irish and German ancestries far outnumber any others. He also told me that people of southern European (Italian, Greek, etc.) extraction are quite rare. I can attest to the fact that people of southern European ancestry are mainly concentrated in the Northeast. Texas is partially the South and partially the Southwest at the same time, however, therefore it is not totally Dixie. I also was not aware of the fact that interracial marriages on the frontier were as common as you say. I suppose the Melungeon/Native American genes are more widespread and there are or have been many people from southern states who claim Native American ancestry (Heather Locklear, Elvis Presley, Chuck Norris, etc. are a few famous examples).
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