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Post by Silveira on Apr 12, 2004 10:18:32 GMT -5
Yes. What I meant to say was that short-sighted greed and lust for geopolitical control plus a frankly ignorant assesment of the African phenomenon informed the anti-colonial policies of the USA and the USSR during the cold war. The so-called "Afro-Asiatic bloc" agitation in the UN also weighed in, fueled mostly by envy and hatred of the old European colonial powers and seemingly oblivious to the position of the Afro-Asiatics as pawns in the cold war.
Africa constitutes the natural "frontier" and area of expansion for otherwise small and resource poor European countries.
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Post by berschneider on Apr 12, 2004 10:46:50 GMT -5
Silveira, - I agree 100% there.
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Post by eufrenio on Apr 12, 2004 14:02:24 GMT -5
Interesting... Is this "Spengler" fellow jewish?
"sorry, I meant to post this under the thread:'Why Europe Chooses Extinction'"
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Post by TutanKa on Apr 12, 2004 14:29:28 GMT -5
I don't believe Silveira meant that adult Africans have mental capacity of a child. What he meant was that people who grew up in simple, to us primitive conditions, as well as tribal societies were not prepared, as children would not be, for a modern world, and easily became pawns in superpower struggle from which they cannot easily recover. As of your comments about West's longevity and its future chances. I am not sure about that. If by west you mean United States, then in my opinion that society has no future no matter how prosperous or powerful it may temporarily appear. On the hand, if you look at Finland you have a society, which is European, developed, formerly agricultural and poor, located in unfavorable climate, that is actually taking care of itself quite nicely under free market conditions while displaying strong solidarity between members of the society. Cleptocratic African style leaders are unimaginable in Finland (and Finland here is just an example). Africa needs more solidarity among Africans and better education, and less weapons, and may be sounds offensive, but it may need outside interference to set it straight. Yes I see your point about Africans not being prepared for the modern world...or some African nations, because some African people do adapt well, better than some immigrants, in European countries. Not all but some. When I said West, I did mean Europe and the US. But Europe as in the structure it currently stands in. The european union more precisely. I don't believe it has much longevity left. But countries like Finland, independantly I believe would survive long after. The US, a great country, that has achieved much, just reminds me of many "empires" before it. The Roman Empire fell at a time when it's boundaries were stretched too far. The army was scattered far and wide. Like a rubber band I suppose, you stretch it too far, it snaps. Thanks for your comments berschneider.
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Post by berschneider on Apr 12, 2004 16:55:02 GMT -5
Yes I see your point about Africans not being prepared for the modern world...or some African nations, because some African people do adapt well, better than some immigrants, in European countries. Not all but some. When I said West, I did mean Europe and the US. But Europe as in the structure it currently stands in. The european union more precisely. I don't believe it has much longevity left. But countries like Finland, independantly I believe would survive long after. The US, a great country, that has achieved much, just reminds me of many "empires" before it. The Roman Empire fell at a time when it's boundaries were stretched too far. The army was scattered far and wide. Like a rubber band I suppose, you stretch it too far, it snaps. Thanks for your comments berschneider. Right, European Soviet Union may not survive for long but individual European countries will and there may be a different Union or EU will be reformed and become less of a joke it is now. United States will probably either go the way other empires went (to the dustbin of history) or simply collapse under weight of its crimes. As of Africans, I did not mean that Africans cannot adopt. I am sure they can adopt as well as anyone else. People of African descent are not stupid (although I despise Lotsoteetha Rice and "Uncle Tom" Colin Powell I must they are two brightest individuals in the evil camarilla that runs the United States). What I meant was that people who lived in traditional closed society (which may have appeared primitive to outsiders) were supplied with weapons and totally alien ideologies and became pawns in wars and squabbles which had was and is of no interest either to Africans or most Europeans.
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Post by Indefens on Apr 12, 2004 23:30:30 GMT -5
All right I had to weigh in here. First of all, America is not an empire in the way that Rome was an empire. The American people have no interest in empire building. Europeans ought to stop projecting their own past onto the American present. We are a good people and we are going to be around for some time. Get used to it. Yes, the war in Iraq was a stupid mistake but we'll be rid of that man (Bush) shortly and that will be that. Furthermore, if anyone is headed into the dustbin of history it is the Europeans with their collapsed birth rate and booming Islamic population. I also take issue with the statement that the American government has "no respect for human life". Perhaps this is the case, but if so, it is no more true for our government than it is for any other. Furthermore, the American people have a deep respect for human life. That's why we have a strong PRO-LIFE movement in this country dedicated to restoring human rights to the unborn which is largely absent in baby-starved Europe, where (it is my impression) the people care more about the rights of convicted killers than they do unborn children sleeping innocently in the womb. But I digress. The problem with Africa is that African blacks score, on average, a 70 on a standard IQ test, on which the global average is 90. In other words, they are 20 points behind the rest of the world. Don't scream at me for being a racist; much of the gap can be explained through infectious diseases and malnutrition, which stunt brain development and are widespread across sub-Saharan Africa. African-Americans, for example, who are largely free of such obstacles yet come from the same genetic stock, score around an 85-- still lower than white Americans, but much, much closer to the global norm. And thus, there are many, many more African-Americans in the high-IQ range such as Condoleeza Rice, who is, as has been noted, a hell of a lot smart than Dubya. It should also be noted that *some* of the gap between white and black Americans can be explained through cultural differences. White women are significantly more likely to breast feed and speak for long hours to their children, two activities known to boost IQ a total of about 8-10 points. So if black moms got on board, the gap would probably narrow to about 7-12 points. (No, I'm not bad at Math, I'm taking into account that some black women already do these things). Anyway, the first step to helping Africa has to be to address their health issues. People with a collective IQ of 70 are not going to be able to run a continent. Iodize their salt, get them vitamin supplements, talk to their infants, whatever. Then take it from there.
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Post by berschneider on Apr 13, 2004 5:00:14 GMT -5
All right I had to weigh in here. First of all, America is not an empire in the way that Rome was an empire. The American people have no interest in empire building. Europeans ought to stop projecting their own past onto the American present. We are a good people and we are going to be around for some time. Get used to it. Yes, the war in Iraq was a stupid mistake but we'll be rid of that man (Bush) shortly and that will be that. Furthermore, if anyone is headed into the dustbin of history it is the Europeans with their collapsed birth rate and booming Islamic population. I also take issue with the statement that the American government has "no respect for human life". Perhaps this is the case, but if so, it is no more true for our government than it is for any other. Furthermore, the American people have a deep respect for human life. That's why we have a strong PRO-LIFE movement in this country dedicated to restoring human rights to the unborn which is largely absent in baby-starved Europe, where (it is my impression) the people care more about the rights of convicted killers than they do unborn children sleeping innocently in the womb. But I digress. The problem with Africa is that African blacks score, on average, a 70 on a standard IQ test, on which the global average is 90. In other words, they are 20 points behind the rest of the world. Don't scream at me for being a racist; much of the gap can be explained through infectious diseases and malnutrition, which stunt brain development and are widespread across sub-Saharan Africa. African-Americans, for example, who are largely free of such obstacles yet come from the same genetic stock, score around an 85-- still lower than white Americans, but much, much closer to the global norm. And thus, there are many, many more African-Americans in the high-IQ range such as Condoleeza Rice, who is, as has been noted, a hell of a lot smart than Dubya. It should also be noted that *some* of the gap between white and black Americans can be explained through cultural differences. White women are significantly more likely to breast feed and speak for long hours to their children, two activities known to boost IQ a total of about 8-10 points. So if black moms got on board, the gap would probably narrow to about 7-12 points. (No, I'm not bad at Math, I'm taking into account that some black women already do these things). Anyway, the first step to helping Africa has to be to address their health issues. People with a collective IQ of 70 are not going to be able to run a continent. Iodize their salt, get them vitamin supplements, talk to their infants, whatever. Then take it from there. United States may have been founded on some common sense ideals back in the late 1700s, United States may have been something of a racist but otherwise benevolent republic until 1860s (nothing wrong with being racist those) days, and I tend to like America until certain point in history (about 1890s). but United States has evolved into what to me now appears the worst threat to humanity. There are individually decent Americans, but for the most part Americans and their government are the enemy of the human race (Hostis Humani Generis). IQ does not mean anything. If you test basic linguistic skills and language proficiency, Americans are hopeless. On the basic level most people in the Low Countries or Scandinavia are practically bilingual, in Finland trilingual and in Luxembourg can communicate in four languages. Compared to them most Americans cannot express themselves clearly in their own mother tongue. This obvious lack of very important mental and intellectual ability does not indicate that Americans are biologically deficient (they are not, they are biologically normal people although are evil) but that their environment did not condition them to acquire these skills. Likewise, members of societies which do not encourage development of abstract reasoning skills in childhood would do poorly on IQ tests. I agree that medical problems stand in the way of Africa’s development and generally agree with the rest of your message (except for the bizarre claim that the American obsession with fetuses has anything to do with respect for human life).
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Post by berschneider on Apr 13, 2004 5:01:50 GMT -5
hell of a lot smart than Dubya. That's an unfair comparison. You'd be hard pressed to find somebody who is more stupid.
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Post by berschneider on Apr 13, 2004 5:06:43 GMT -5
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Post by Silveira on Apr 13, 2004 13:05:47 GMT -5
I have never trusted IQ tests as being the final word as far as human intellegence is concerned. There are just so many ways people adapt to difficult and problematic situations which require the use of mental faculties but which cannot really be evaluated by these formal tests. Some people have a faith in scientific studies similar to a Baptist preacher´s faith in Biblical writ.
Regarding abortions, I don´t see any relation between this issue and Africa but for all that its worth abortions are illegal in Portugal. There was a referendum a few years ago over decriminalizing abortion and the government proposal was rejected by the voters. The abortion issue has only a marginal effect on the birth rate question. The sociological truth is that people with a lower standard of living tend to have more children. When compared with today, the birth rate in Portugal was much higher 40 years ago, still considerably higher in Portugal as recently as 20 years ago, and has declined in direct proportion to the rise in living standards amongst the bulk of the Portuguese population.
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Post by eufrenio on Apr 13, 2004 13:49:51 GMT -5
I agree with Silveira that IQ is only a small part of the picture. I don´t know if breast-feeding improves IQ, but it doesn´t seem to have worked too well in Africa where it is the norm. Africa needs roads, hospitals, professionals and above all the rule of law and solid institutions. They were well on the road to development under european rule. They have squandered that heritage these last 40 years. Africa needed 200 years more of colonialism at least to be able to make a decent start.
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Post by Indefens on Apr 13, 2004 22:12:38 GMT -5
United States may have been founded on some common sense ideals back in the late 1700s, United States may have been something of a racist but otherwise benevolent republic until 1860s (nothing wrong with being racist those) days, and I tend to like America until certain point in history (about 1890s). but United States has evolved into what to me now appears the worst threat to humanity. There are individually decent Americans, but for the most part Americans and their government are the enemy of the human race (Hostis Humani Generis). IQ does not mean anything. If you test basic linguistic skills and language proficiency, Americans are hopeless. On the basic level most people in the Low Countries or Scandinavia are practically bilingual, in Finland trilingual and in Luxembourg can communicate in four languages. Compared to them most Americans cannot express themselves clearly in their own mother tongue. This obvious lack of very important mental and intellectual ability does not indicate that Americans are biologically deficient (they are not, they are biologically normal people although are evil) but that their environment did not condition them to acquire these skills. Likewise, members of societies which do not encourage development of abstract reasoning skills in childhood would do poorly on IQ tests. I agree that medical problems stand in the way of Africa’s development and generally agree with the rest of your message (except for the bizarre claim that the American obsession with fetuses has anything to do with respect for human life). Well, if you think IQ "doesn't mean anything" you are completely out of touch with reality. As for Americans being evil, well... Again, you are completely out of touch with reality. As for our "obsession with fetuses", given that the fetus is a living human being, yes, it is a direct result of our respect for human life. (Unless, of course, you want to deny that the fetus is a living human being. In which case, again... you are completely out of touch with reality...)
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Post by berschneider on Apr 14, 2004 4:19:52 GMT -5
Well, if you think IQ "doesn't mean anything" you are completely out of touch with reality. As for Americans being evil, well... Again, you are completely out of touch with reality. As for our "obsession with fetuses", given that the fetus is a living human being, yes, it is a direct result of our respect for human life. (Unless, of course, you want to deny that the fetus is a living human being. In which case, again... you are completely out of touch with reality...) IQ does not mean anything. People who are not conditioned to abstract thinking will not do well on IQ test. If I gave you a test with instructions in German, Russian or French, most likely you would not be able to complete it. There are many kinds of tests which you would not be able to complete. Although you are an idiot, failure to complete a Russian or German test does not signify you are a total idiot (or does it), but since you don't speak the language it's logical to assume you don't quite understand what is being asked from you in the test, right? Tests are made for people of particular background and culture. There are no uniform tests for everybody. United States is Evil Scummy Fad Empire. In fact, like most of the people in the world, |I am quite in touch in realty. Americans are absolutely evil and so is their stupid worthless country. Fetus is not a living human being. No civil law ever deemed fetus as equal to a born person. I mean from religious standpoint life may begin at conception and masturbation is murder, but sorry not even medieval laws considered that to be the case. Note that only American scum, otherwise totally immoral, struggles with this fetus dilemma, nobody else in the world seems to have it.
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Post by Silveira on Apr 14, 2004 12:40:38 GMT -5
I agree. It would be silly to administer a test based solely on what constitutes the applications of mental faculties in one society and context while ignoring what is essential in other societies and circumstances. For example, most Europeans and Americans with very high IQ scores would be less apt to survive for a week in the middle of Africa than a low IQ native African.
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Scoob
Full Member
Posts: 157
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Post by Scoob on Apr 14, 2004 13:12:18 GMT -5
You mean Africans are biologically defective and are unfit to take care of themselves? Africans are not biologically defective. Obviously they can be quite healthy and have happy, viable offspring. However, they don't seem to be at all adapted to the type of temperate civilization or structured city living that is characteristic of modern life. They find "The System" (which they think of as "The [White] Man" in the USA) extremely stressful. Most choose to live in poverty, doing menial jobs, etc. They don't rise to the top of societies, or even the middle class, without lots of help and lowering of standards. This is related to possibly not just aptitude, but also desire - they find a modern lifestyle undesirable.
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