Soviet losses: 9 million, German losses: 7 million

[dukeofpain]

I've just finished "Barbarossa" by Erickson and found the last chapter quite illuminating. Erickson deals with the various losses by the two powers, here are some of the 'highlights' which I thought were rather excellent in revealing how wrongly people often perceive Soviet losses when compared to German:

The figure for total loss - 11,444,100 - must be adjusted downwards, since 1,836,000 prisoners of war returned to the Soviet Union and 939,700 men previously accounted missing or prisoners were inducted in liberated territories - 2,775,700 men in all. Thus the total loss properly adjusted becomes 8,668,400.

The figure being originally used (11,444,100) is from a Soviet article in "Krasnaya Zvezda." pg. 261

A number of Soviet sources settled for a figure of 'about a million' for losses in the 'satellite armies' and thus arrived at a 'total loss' figure for German - Axis forces of 7,051,000 (6,046,000 German losses plus 1,005,000 'satellite' losses).

To the Red Army casualty list should also be added the figures for those national units fighting with the Red Army, numbering 47,000: 13,900 Poles, up to 11,000 in the Czechoslovak Corps, up to 15,000 Romanian and 7,000 Bulgarians." pg. 269

Adding 47,000 to 8,668,400 we come to the number 8,715,400 and 7,051,000 for German+allies losses, a ratio somewhat over 1:1, but nowhere near the 10:1 that we often hear about.

What isn't listed are all the Hiwis [Hilfsfreiwilligen] ,etc, which were also part of the German Army and their losses. Also, I found this interesting:

"The German files Panzer-Verluste Ost compiled by Fremde Heere Ost (IIc), in a report for 26 January 1944 summarising Feindliche Panzer-Verluste 1941-1943, tabulated troop after-action 'reported losses' with confirmed loss. The figure for Soviet tank losses in 1941 was 22,000 (with only the smallest discrepancy between the two figures, 246). For 1942 the figure of actual loss was 16,200 (compared to a 'reported loss' of 21,367). In 1943 actual loss was 17,300 (as opposed to a 'reported loss' of 34,659!). For the period 1941-3, German intelligence arrived at a figure of 55,300 Soviet tanks destroyed (compared to a 'reported loss' of 78,272, much of it attributed to 20-50 per cent double-counting)."

pg. 268 Kirovhseev supplies Soviet tank losses as '20,500 in 1941, 15,100 in 1942, 23,500 in 1943." I'd be careful with German 'tank counting' after seeing this.

Imported topic from forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=87012

[nordicyouth]

I was under the impression that the Germans suffered 5 millions dead (combatants and non-combatants) and that the Soviets suffered 24 millions dead (50% combatants; 50% non-combatants).

I'm reading Overy's 'The Dictators: Hitler & Stalin,' and he's fairly conservative on fatality figures i.e. 5.7 millions (obviously not up for debate) for Jews in the Holocaust and far less for those that perished under the Soviet regime (down from the 80 millions anti-communists claim).

[nordicyouth]

Even at war's end, the Soviets suffered 6 dead soldiers for every German killed; hence the 24 million-figure.

[galton]

nordicyouth said:

I was under the impression that the Germans suffered 5 millions dead (combatants and non-combatants) and that the Soviets suffered 24 millions dead (50% combatants; 50% non-combatants).

I'm reading Overy's 'The Dictators: Hitler & Stalin,' and he's fairly conservative on fatality figures i.e. 5.7 millions (obviously not up for debate) for Jews in the Holocaust and far less for those that perished under the Soviet regime (down from the 80 millions anti-communists claim).

World Almanac, 1940, pg. 129: World Jewish Population- 15,319,359
World Almanac, 1949, pg. 289: World Jewish Population- 15,713,638
World Almanac, 1996, pg. 646: World Jewish Population- 14,117,000

[zemelmete]

All these numbers show how valueless were lives of people for dictators...

[Leader of the Barbarian Juns]

I think the point is Germany aggressor got want it wanted another lose in another war.

[Crimson Guard]

The Soviet's wouldve invaded Europe eventually as Stalin had designs of taking Finland and Poland.

The russians had the numbers where they could loose 100 millions people and still have another 200 million in reserve. They had a near endless supply of manpower.

[dukeofpain]

nordicyouth said:

I was under the impression that the Germans suffered 5 millions dead (combatants and non-combatants) and that the Soviets suffered 24 millions dead (50% combatants; 50% non-combatants).

I'm reading Overy's 'The Dictators: Hitler & Stalin,' and he's fairly conservative on fatality figures i.e. 5.7 millions (obviously not up for debate) for Jews in the Holocaust and far less for those that perished under the Soviet regime (down from the 80 millions anti-communists claim).

Those authors use less than perfect methods in deciding these numbers. Using decimals is a red flag.

Most treat american and English documents as if they were the word of god. The same English and Americans that propagandized deaths in German concentration camps. Whom they said were jews, even though they were actually political prisoners from all over Europe. In one such camp, the so called victims of the Germans had infact died after a bombing attack that destroyed the waterline.

What also strange is that these figures rely on evidence from auscwitz, even though the original documents relating to Auschwitz, had cliamed only 80,000, which are documents that had been released after the fall of the soviet union. Which had been raised to 6 million, than had been lowered [in 1994] to 1 million.


The methodology these people use doesn't quite resemble being "conservative". Most of the evidence they use in the first place is laden in theory, conjecture and circumstance.

Hilberg is one such "trusted" mainstream historian.

vho.org/dl/ENG/Giant.pdf

The Germans lost over a million men in the summer of 1944 alone, 2 Measly months. 1:6 is a ridiculous number that makes no sense at all.

[Amic]

People died for being who they are,how are you going to jusity the maddness of Nazi Germany?

This line is strange:

Most treat american and English documents as if they were the word of god. The same English and Americans that propagandized deaths in German concentration camps.

So,they are propagandists but your rantings are truth?You mean to tell me you are going to trust documentation from a goverment who was one of the best propagandists of that time,with out question?

At least you are not denying the holocaust.

[phrost]

From a technological and industrial perspective the Germans were way ahead of the Russians. Russia was a semi monarchy with very few industry befor the overthrow of the Czar.

[dukeofpain]

styrofoam said:

People died for being who they are,how are you going to jusity the maddness of Nazi Germany?

This line is strange:

Most treat american and English documents as if they were the word of god. The same English and Americans that propagandized deaths in German concentration camps.

So,they are propagandists but your rantings are truth?You mean to tell me you are going to trust documentation from a goverment who was one of the best propagandists of that time,with out question?

At least you are not denying the holocaust.

WTF?!?! The whole point was that it should've been taken with a grain of salt, regardless if they lost the war or didn't. Where exactly did I say that english and american documents should be ignored completely?.........thats what I thought.

The only ranting is being done by you.

[Amic]

dukeofpain said:

styrofoam said:

People died for being who they are,how are you going to jusity the maddness of Nazi Germany?

This line is strange:


So,they are propagandists but your rantings are truth?You mean to tell me you are going to trust documentation from a goverment who was one of the best propagandists of that time,with out question?

At least you are not denying the holocaust.

WTF?!?! The whole point was that it should\\\'ve been taken with a grain of salt, regardless if they lost the war or didn\\\'t. Where exactly did I say that english and american documents should be ignored completely?.........thats what I thought.

The only ranting is being done by you.

950 posts most of them about jews and others about how you hate others or dislike others.Thats ranting.

Also, you have been shown on how people have manipulated data,but you forget the point it happend,regardless of numbers there will always be on doubt.But there is no doubt that it happend and Germany was the cause of it.

Posting like you do only drives people away from your cause.of course maybe you are not in a cause because you are to chicken shit to stand and be counted,So you will spam to pull people into angrument which you already have decided you are right and they are worng.

[Amic]

Just be honest

[dukeofpain]

styrofoam said:

dukeofpain said:

WTF?!?! The whole point was that it should\\\'ve been taken with a grain of salt, regardless if they lost the war or didn\\\'t. Where exactly did I say that english and american documents should be ignored completely?.........thats what I thought.

The only ranting is being done by you.

950 posts most of them about jews and others about how you hate others or dislike others.Thats ranting.

Also, you have been shown on how people have manipulated data,but you forget the point it happend,regardless of numbers there will always be on doubt.But there is no doubt that it happend and Germany was the cause of it.

Posting like you do only drives people away from your cause.of course maybe you are not in a cause because you are to chicken shit to stand and be counted,So you will spam to pull people into angrument which you already have decided you are right and they are worng.

If this is all you have, don't even bother, dipshit.

[asdf]

Duke, no offense intended, but - why on earth do you post here?