mmmkay
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Post by mmmkay on Jan 14, 2006 2:32:21 GMT -5
Sub-saharan Africa (or "black" africa) has actually contributed enormously to world history Sure. As a labour force. As a intellectual force is more what I had in mind. Try reading this. Provided you have the capacity to comprehend its implications, you might learn something. If not, then continue on as you were. The world does not mourn the passing of ignorance. Good day. www.sum.uio.no/research/mali/timbuktu/
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Terp
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Post by Terp on Jan 14, 2006 3:04:01 GMT -5
90% of Europe were in the same condition as most of Africa 5-600 years ago. OK, you wanna test that claim? I'll post some pictures of medieval European bridges, castles, cathedrals, windmills, waterwheels, aqueducts, sewers, armor, weapons, paintings, sculpture, manuscripts, clocks, etc. And for comparison, you can post pictures of black African versions of those same things from the same time period. How about it?
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Post by dukeofpain on Jan 14, 2006 3:15:28 GMT -5
As a intellectual force is more what I had in mind. Try reading this. Provided you have the capacity to comprehend its implications, you might learn something. If not, then continue on as you were. The world does not mourn the passing of ignorance. Good day. www.sum.uio.no/research/mali/timbuktu/Great! Timbuktu! hosted by a Norwegian web provider.
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Terp
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Post by Terp on Jan 14, 2006 4:08:39 GMT -5
There are two schools of thought ... The second is the "indigenous" school, which holds that the architecture and culture seen on the coast is mostly of african origin. Wrong. Your source talked about "earthenware" not architecture. The architecture, as my source pointed out, was clearly patterned after Middle Eastern architecture. That's obvious just from looking at it. The Kilwa mosque resembles Arab mosques more than Gothic cathedrals resemble Roman architecture. No more indigenous than European material culture. ...Unlike Europe, which transformed civilization all over the world, the Swahili invented nothing worth anything to anyone. The Islamic culture was transmitted to East Africa by trade and other contact. Colonization by military conquest isn't necessary for cultural transmission. Much of Europe wasn't conquered by either Arabs or Romans, yet that doesn't stop you from flapping your jaws about all of Europe being a trivial extension of Roman and/or Arab civs. Double standard, again. ...and northern/western Europe had indigenous boats before the Romans came...what's your point? Bullocks. Arabic loans are as high as 50 percent in Swahili poetry (written in Arabic script), and about twenty percent of the spoken language: 64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:r3jQVwIht3wJ:www.swahili.ca/language.html The Greek language had nowhere near 20-25% phoenician/egyptian words; that's something Martin Bernal made up. Indo-European linguists do not take Bernal seriously. Semitic contributions to the Greek lexicon are very few in number and have mostly to do with trade items, while Egyptian loans are even fewer in number and later in date. See Jasanoff and Nussbaum's refutation of Bernal in Black Athena Revisited. Not a very good one, apparently.
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Post by Planet Asia on Jan 14, 2006 7:25:18 GMT -5
There are two schools of thought ... The second is the "indigenous" school, which holds that the architecture and culture seen on the coast is mostly of african origin. Wrong. Your source talked about "earthenware" not architecture. The architecture, as my source pointed out, was clearly patterned after Middle Eastern architecture. That's obvious just from looking at it. The Kilwa mosque resembles Arab mosques more than Gothic cathedrals resemble Roman architecture. You're just talking about mosques but the majority of East African Swahili architecture was of indigenous origin for most of the Swahili were *NOT* Muslims until fairly recently and even now most of the people aren't Muslim. Read Graham Connah's "African Civilizations", Cambridge University Press for more details. Swahili culture was indigenous, you can even read about the coastal settlements in the "Periplus of the Erythraean Sea", which was written before Islam. Unlike Europe which colonized the rest of the world bring white supremacy. Swahili culture is *NOT* Ismaic culture since it existed *BEFORE* Islam and there were very few Arabs who actually settled along the East African coast. Islamic culture doesn't=Arabic culture either. Much of Europe was like Africa, you heard nothing about Britain, France, Germany, Norway, and Sweden 6,000 years ago. There were no castles, bridges, cathedrals,etc, in most Europe during that time, and the concept of Europe didn't even exist, thats a recent social construct. The first civilizations in Europe were indeed heavily influenced by the Near East and Egypt, so what exactly was indigenous in Europe? And Nubians had a written language long before Northwest Europe....what is your point? Ok, all languages have loan words so whats the point? Swahili at its roots is a Bantu language. Hell American English has a ton of non-European loan words and vocabulary.
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Post by eufrenio on Jan 14, 2006 8:19:44 GMT -5
He's just resentful and full of shit. Not the way I would have put it-I´m sure there are more elegant phrasings - but simply the reason why I stopped my discussion with him. He´s not rational.
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Post by atlantis on Jan 14, 2006 13:21:39 GMT -5
I sense a lot of euro and negroid centrism.
We all know the Middle East is the cradle of civilization of which we all borrowed from.
BTW Egypt, Carthage, the Moorish Empire, Numidia, the Barbary Coast ;D , ... were all worthy African civilization who where influenced from either the Middle East or Europe.
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Post by atlantis on Jan 14, 2006 13:32:53 GMT -5
Gothic cathedral of Burgos, Spain: I like these ones better ;D The Giralda: Sevilla, Spain Alhambra: Granada, Spain Just a matter of taste of course.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Jan 14, 2006 13:46:24 GMT -5
Atlantis don't make me kick into "Romancentrism" now... I could you know!
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Post by Planet Asia on Jan 14, 2006 13:56:07 GMT -5
I sense a lot of euro and negroid centrism. We all know the Middle East is the cradle of civilization of which we all borrowed from. BTW Egypt, Carthage, the Moorish Empire, Numidia, the Barbary Coast ;D , ... were all worthy African civilization who where influenced from either the Middle East or Europe. Egyptians influenced the Middle East and Europe but it borrowed very little if an from the Middle East so the Middle East isn't really the cradle of *ALL* civilization, its one of many cradles.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Jan 14, 2006 13:58:35 GMT -5
thats only after Scipio Africanus landed in Carthage with his Sicilian marines and ransacked Tunis unchecked .Hannibal was up in Italy cut off and lost his bid for destroying the early Rome. Damn 12 years almost and he couldnt take Italy.hahaha
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Post by Crimson Guard on Jan 14, 2006 13:59:56 GMT -5
LOL!
Egypt was a Mediterranean Civilzation and always considered itself part've Asia .
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Post by Planet Asia on Jan 14, 2006 14:53:04 GMT -5
LOL! Egypt was a Mediterranean Civilzation and always considered itself part've Asia . Ancient Egypt was an African civilization built with influences on African soil by Africans in Africa.
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mmmkay
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Internet Philosophiser, Leftist Hero
Posts: 127
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Post by mmmkay on Jan 14, 2006 18:32:31 GMT -5
As a intellectual force is more what I had in mind. Try reading this. Provided you have the capacity to comprehend its implications, you might learn something. If not, then continue on as you were. The world does not mourn the passing of ignorance. Good day. www.sum.uio.no/research/mali/timbuktu/Great! Timbuktu! hosted by a Norwegian web provider. And your point is? Apparently (as I predicted) you have failed to grasp the implications of the material presented to you, you probably did'nt even so much as browse the site. Instead you just point out trivial things not related to the topic at all. You could'nt grasp new information if your life depended on it. So basically you did'nt bother reading the rest of the source did you? Allow me to break your arguments down piece-by-piece, Here's more: The architectural style seen on the coast as I said before, has no parallels anywhere, it was a natural consequence of a materially evolving culture and increasing socio-economic specialisation and complexity. I never said the swahili did'nt borrow aspects from arabia, but on the other hand they used completely different techniques for construction, such as the use of quaried coral reef in conjunction with lime mortar. This is totally distinct. Nonsense, Arab mosques are made out of coral rag, lime and stone? Perhaps this quote could explain the differences more strikingly: Differences in culture account for the lack of conformity to standards in Arabo-persia. What we are talking about is an essentially african culture borrowing aspects of other cultures they come into contact with and participating in indian ocean trade based upon volunatary self-interest. Their risks and entrepreneuship were rewarded by increasing socio-political position and wealth. The cities of stone and coral were brought on as their society further specialised. Perhaps you should study them closer because its not as "obvious" as you think. Indeed that is the question I would ask you, since you brought up this silly and trivial point. Who cares if they borrowed the dhow from the arabs. For future reference: Next time, try posting working links, it does no good to provide an argument with no basis whatsoever. In response to your claim, you are quite wrong, heres why : You specifically said swahili poetry, as if it is somehow a barometer of all the arabic language present in swahili. Perhaps they were simply using arabic loans with more frequency? it never truly answer the question of how much arabic is actually present. But don't worry, I have the answer here: The fact that the langauge itself was written in arabic script is inconsequential. Arabic is basicially the "latin" of africa, in that is was used to write many native african languages. Swahili is no different. The swahili language proper is a bantu langauge with semitic and persian borrowings. What you did was exaggerate the extent of that borrowing. Because untill recently (post medieval), quite frankly it was. There should be no argument there really. Yes I suppose he had nothing to do but to write two enormous volumes concerning connections that he "made up". Interestingly, there is another volume due out next month actually, dealing almost exclusively with the question of linguistics, it will be an interesting read. rutgerspress.rutgers.edu/acatalog/__Black_Athena___Volume_3_2230.htmlMaybe you should consider looking into it. It would surely answer to the criticisms raised in "black athena: revisited" if it already has'nt. Nevermind the fact that the book was put out by bernal himself for the sole purpose of answering to his critics. His counter-arguments are exhaustive. There is no double standard really. Just a total lack of a balanced and knowledgeable perspective (on your part) regarding the swahili people. Imagination can lead us to places we've never gone or seen, yours apparently has lead you to false conclusions. Good day.
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mmmkay
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Internet Philosophiser, Leftist Hero
Posts: 127
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Post by mmmkay on Jan 14, 2006 18:48:58 GMT -5
He's just resentful and full of shit. Not the way I would have put it-I´m sure there are more elegant phrasings - but simply the reason why I stopped my discussion with him. He´s not rational. I'm afraid he's probably not capable of putting it in any more elegant terms even if he wanted to. Judging by you paltry responses "He's not rational" is simply another way of saying "He's effectively won the debate and I have nothing left to contribute". Really I don't understand what was so "irrational" about my responses. If you'd care to point it out then I'd be helped to correct that. Unfortunately I dont think I will be coming anytime soon.
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