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Post by Crimson Guard on Jan 12, 2006 14:10:52 GMT -5
What Africa are you talking about? SSA? nothing remotely like 90%Europe.
Muslim Expansion? Didn't work that way,and only Saracen's helped contribute,but they mostly got their knowledge from the Greeks and Romans as they heavily Romanized for almost a 1000 years prior,so it was like them re-introducing certain things at best .
Most of the time it was mutual Learning taken place in Sicily by both the Siculo-Normans and Saracens.
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Post by eufrenio on Jan 12, 2006 14:31:03 GMT -5
Lol, you guys are full of it. Tell what empire or civilizations Europeans have ever had (minus the med areas)? And don't talk about western civilization coz this is a collective creation from all continents. You keep mentioning that Africa whatever it had was influenced from outside. Now tell me even one exclusive "European civlization" (if it ever existed) that is indegenous? 90% of Europe were in the same condition as most of Africa 5-600 years ago. The only thing that pulled Europeans out of their dark age history was due to the renaissance which was derived from the foundation and knowledge laid by the muslim expansion. Some ambitious countries took advantage of this opportunity and campaigned for enlightment and then spread it further north to the rest of the isolated communities. Now besides the vandals and the vikings and other barbarian communities(if you want to call these kingdoms), what civilization has Europe ever had? (I'm refering to most of Europe minus Rome and ancient Greece and nearby communities which were imo more closer to near-eastern countries than rest of Europe). The arrogance and ignorance on this thread is unbelievable. Did Europe even ever had a writing script before the Greek scripture? which btw was influnce by the phonecian script and these civilizations were both by structure close to each other than any other European country ever were at that time. Just face it European history(that is worth talking about)just started some five-six hundred years ago, the rest is just some minor details (not comparible to other regions history) and further exagerated by western historians so to create something out of nothing. Disregarding your laughable writing off Rome and Greece as marginal to the continent (when to the contrary greco-roman culture and civilization took root in a sizable part of Europe in antiquity), there´s so much wrong about your post that it´s hard to make sense of it. You seem to ignore that the Middle Ages were a brilliant civilization on their own, hardly the dark ages you make of them. It was spread throughout Europe and not just in the Med area. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_ages Medieval society had rule of law, a literate culture, architecture (take a look at any gothic cathedral and tell me if SSA Africa has ever produced anything like it), medicine, cities with sewage system, etc. Read the Decameron and tell me what´s backward about it and the society it portrays? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decamerons You cannot argue against the continuity of European Civilization. It is a fact for anybody who can read. Gothic cathedral of Burgos, Spain: Gothic cathedral of Bourges, France: Hardly primitive.
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Post by anodyne on Jan 12, 2006 14:38:05 GMT -5
The Muslims reintroduced Greek scholars to Europe. Muslim foundation and knowledge was taken from other groups and, of course, expanded on to some degree depending on what subject you're talking about. You could say that Muslims reintroduced an important part of European civilization to Europeans, and, obviously, were influenced by ancient Greeks themselves. It's funny that you think that the only European history worth talking about is Ancient Rome and Greece and everything else is minor details. I suppose technological advancemnts of the past 500 years, which are almost exclusively of European civilizations are unimportant or the role of Europeans in shaping the world, including the ideologies that compete with each other in many non European countries, is also unimportant. I think all of that is worth talking about. No other region of the world has played as much a major role in the hsitory of world affairs and it's a consequence of European civilizations. The British empire, perhaps? You seem to have a cut off date for whether civilizations are relevant. If it's not ancient it's not worth discussing, perhaps. Oh, but wait! I almost forgot that you said the following: (An interesting , but wrong, angle to play.) Western civilization is of European/levant origin. I hate to break it you but Egypt has little to no influence on European civilization. I know afrocentrics attempt to prove Greek civilization is greatly influenced by Egyptians but the evidence is not there. Nor where the ancient Egyptians unlike people across the pond racially, of course, that doesn't matter. What matters is the influence, or lack there of, I should say. Wait.... did I just inadvertantly start another long and drawn out debate on the racial stock of ancient Egypt?! I'll be in the kitchen.
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Post by Ras-Xafun on Jan 12, 2006 14:44:24 GMT -5
What Africa are you talking about? SSA? nothing remotely like 90%Europe. Muslim Expansion? Didn't work that way,and only Saracen's helped contribute,but they mostly got their knowledge from the Greeks and Romans as they heavily Romanized for almost a 1000 years prior,so it was like them re-introducing certain things at best . Most of the time it was mutual Learning taken place in Sicily by both the Siculo-Normans and Saracens. The medieval christian Europe designated the term Saracen to all muslims in general who they came in contact with,regardless if they were arabs, turks, or moors, It wasn't only to name sicilian muslims.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Jan 12, 2006 14:51:40 GMT -5
What Africa are you talking about? SSA? nothing remotely like 90%Europe. Muslim Expansion? Didn't work that way,and only Saracen's helped contribute,but they mostly got their knowledge from the Greeks and Romans as they heavily Romanized for almost a 1000 years prior,so it was like them re-introducing certain things at best . Most of the time it was mutual Learning taken place in Sicily by both the Siculo-Normans and Saracens. The medieval christian Europe designated the term Saracen to all muslims in general who they came in contact with,regardless if they were arabs, turks, or moors, It wasn't only to name sicilian muslims. I don't care about what European Christians did later on..The type of Muslims you where referring/alluding to about before,where only the One Type..the Saracen Arabs of Sicily...and the rest as I mentioned above.
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Post by Ras-Xafun on Jan 12, 2006 15:12:14 GMT -5
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Post by gelaye on Jan 12, 2006 15:19:33 GMT -5
omg....lol this post has got joke! i have to say that i know this isnt a very good argument, but you cannot say 'Africa amounts to shit', as while ALL Northern Europeans were running round in animal skins and living in cesspits, at least 20% of Africans were living in some form of urban, agrarian society with religion, science, mathematics and commerce. now i know africa is pretty messed up today but i find it just plain ignorant when people say Africa is a worthless continent that didn't contribute to anything. You think Europeans went into the congo and caught slaves themselves? noway! they got the slaves by trading with African Kingdoms and Empires - Europeans would have never survived hunting in the African bush, with their sweaty pink skin exposed to the sun lol. (ok that post started to sound a bit racsist, didnt mean that )
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Post by eufrenio on Jan 12, 2006 15:25:28 GMT -5
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Post by eufrenio on Jan 12, 2006 15:39:08 GMT -5
The Roman Empire: You can see that large parts of Europe were romanised. The Eastern Roman Empire played a similar role later on in romanising (and hellenising) large parts of what we now call call eastern Europe.
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Post by galton on Jan 12, 2006 15:48:26 GMT -5
Lol, you guys are full of it. Tell what empire or civilizations Europeans have ever had (minus the med areas)? Oh now meds aren't European, right? Well, the ancient egyptians were caucasian. Besides, ever heard of the British Empire?
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Post by Ras-Xafun on Jan 12, 2006 16:11:59 GMT -5
The roman bath in England was rebuilt by king george, so to have something tangible to gloat about. The point of the matter is that the roman leftovers in most of europe are modest or non-existant compared to those outside europe. which makes me wonder how europe rome was.
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Post by Ras-Xafun on Jan 12, 2006 16:18:16 GMT -5
Lol, you guys are full of it. Tell what empire or civilizations Europeans have ever had (minus the med areas)? Oh now meds aren't European, right? Well, the ancient egyptians were caucasian. Besides, ever heard of the British Empire? Lol@ ancient Egypt, where did i mention AE? but now that you brought it up I can tell you that it doesn't matter if Egytians were mongolid, caucasian or negroid what matters is that they had nothing to do with your barbarian ancestors, regardless of how caucasian they were.
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Post by galton on Jan 12, 2006 18:22:18 GMT -5
Lol@ ancient Egypt, where did i mention AE? but now that you brought it up I can tell you that it doesn't matter if Egytians were mongolid, caucasian or negroid what matters is that they had nothing to do with your barbarian ancestors, regardless of how caucasian they were. That was not a smart statement. If I'm caucasian and the ancient egyptians were caucasian, then they have much to do with me. Race is a real biological entity. Don't embarrass yourself with such silly nonesense anymore, Please.
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Post by Ras-Xafun on Jan 12, 2006 19:08:57 GMT -5
Lol@ ancient Egypt, where did i mention AE? but now that you brought it up I can tell you that it doesn't matter if Egytians were mongolid, caucasian or negroid what matters is that they had nothing to do with your barbarian ancestors, regardless of how caucasian they were. That was not a smart statement. If I'm caucasian and the ancient egyptians were caucasian, then they have much to do with me. Race is a real biological entity. Don't embarrass yourself with such silly nonesense anymore, Please. Lmao, tell me you're kidding, you're joking me right? So using your logic all caucasian people around the world can claim everything created by any other person as long they are caucasian, right? let me re-phrase myself again from the previous post. The ancient Egyptians have never met you ancestors, they never cared about your ancestors, they never knew your ancestors existed, never tried to know if they existed. In conclusion the ancient egyptians had nothing to do with your ancestors. I hope you now realize the fallacy and how erreneous your last post was. Besides the term caucasian is bogus since it tries to link some people to other people in an arbitrary way. Ancient egyptians were not europeans and looked nothing like most europeans.
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mmmkay
Full Member
Internet Philosophiser, Leftist Hero
Posts: 127
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Post by mmmkay on Jan 12, 2006 19:21:30 GMT -5
Lol@ ancient Egypt, where did i mention AE? but now that you brought it up I can tell you that it doesn't matter if Egytians were mongolid, caucasian or negroid what matters is that they had nothing to do with your barbarian ancestors, regardless of how caucasian they were. Pure opinion. Prove me otherwise. And don't provide pseudo-scientific links, but actual peer-reviewed studies, or quite frankly your opinion is just non-sense. Whats so "laughable" about it? You have'nt disproven anything he said, you only provided links proving his point. Namely that the middle ages and european architecture, arts, sciences etc, was the remnants of roman colonialism and not a purely indigenous achievement by any streatch of the imagination. Sub-saharan Africa (or "black" africa) has actually contributed enormously to world history, especially muslim africa. West african universities receivec and educated many arab scholars of the time and black african scholars produced many works in timbuktu and djenne, as much as 400 years before the european renaissance. The swahili on the eastern coast were among the most technologically advanced socities of their time. They had indoor plumbing, multi-storied buildings, a proto-capitalist enterprenuer economy with minted coins and terracing agriculture. They were full participants in the early stages of globalisation and indian ocean trading networks with they exploited to reap huge profits. Their architecture (now ruined) has no cultural parallels anywhere else in the world and is restricted to eastern africa only. Now compare these to the ex-colony we now refer to as "Europe" which is essentially an extension of greco-roman ideas. Whereas black africa was never colonised by any force or power prior to the 1600's.
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