Post by Mazigh on Dec 31, 2005 7:19:59 GMT -5
When you read that the word "berber" is related to the greek word "barbarian", you don't have to understand that the greeks called the berbers "barbarians". This might be true. But you can't derive it from what you read as i said.
the people who believe that the word "berber" is derived from the greek word "barbarian". believe that it is of Greek origin. and it has been adapted by the romans who used it a general word for all the people who weren't romans (They maybe called the greeks "barbarians").
From what i read the barbarians of the romans were somehow elastic. they called all the non-inhabitants of rome barbarians in the beginning, and later all the people who didn't belong to the roman empire (especially the germans, i think).
But i wonder why they believe that the word is of greek origin since they and the romans speak an indo-european language. it might be a common word in the both languages.
When you read that the word "berber" is derived from the greek word "barbarois" (supposing it is true), that doesn't mean the berbers where known as berbers or barbarians to the greeks. NO, the greek called us Libyans. every berber was libyan to the greeks.
I don't remember that herodotus who wrote about the berbers tribes called them "berbers" or "barbarois". he called them as tribes, and each tribe has its own name. and he called them generally as "libyans".
It is true that some greeks called them "barbarians", but you can hardly find it (i think), and this was absolutely not restricted to the berbers. and the question is: If the word "berber" is derived from the greek word "barbarois" (i don't know how it is said in greek ), why did the other people not get the name "barbarian" like as the berbers, then ?
When the greeks firstly came to north africa (to the land of the berbers), they came as guests claiming it is the wishe of the delphi's oracle (if i recall correctly), but they were not welcomed in the first time, and accordingly, they went back to their homeland in Troye, Nevertheless, the strategy of the greeks depended on that penetration, so they went back to the land of the berbers, and they were refused by many berber [Libyan] tribes, untill they became welcomed by a berber/libyan tribe known as the esbostay, there learn some technics (shariots with for horses, as example), there they followed the berber traditions (like as the horses's race to merry a women), and there they worshiped some Berber deities (Like as "Amon" that they mixed with their greatest god "Zeus"), and even the city they founded was called after a berber giant called cyre that they made as wife of Apollo. Cyrenaice is named to this goddess. Wich shows that they established peacefully among the Berbers.
From what i read they established there for estrategic reasons in the cader of their wars against the Cartagians.
Those greeks who established amon the berbers will be considered as non-greeks (or greeks of the second degree), that led to a confusion towards the berbers who couldn't decide wheter they were foreingers of Berberizeds.
One of the historians said that the greeks could easily defead the carthagians, and this let the carthagians ask for the alliance with the berbers out cartago (it is said that the army of cartago who mainly berber) which brought the power's balance to an equivalence for a period (from what i read).
But after the greeks of cyreaince could improve their politic situation they invited more greeks from their homeland to establish among them, but the berbers were not satisfied with that, because that would let them permamently lost their influence in that land. As result, they asked for the aid from The pharaoh "apries" who was eventually "Berber" of origin (from what i read). But for a reason or another one they lost the war.
Unluckily for the berbers, "Apries" would later set out, and the greeks will became the owners the politic decidins through their client pharaoh 'Amassis'. Because, the berbers not only lost their ally in egypt, but the greeks themselves will take advantage of their new power in egypt to establish their influence in Cartage.
The berbers in this period, will ally again with cartage, and they indeed seemed to be in the winning side. But yet unluckily for the berbers, another growing power appeared in the mideterranean see, it is rome.
The cartagers had to fight against the romans, and so, the berbers lost their ally. This meant that the berbers had to fight alone in this war against the greest, and this did the libyans. In the war of "Leukon" the greeks lost about 7000 soldiers with high formation, according to herodotus.
But yet unluckily for the berbers, the perzians will dominate "egypt", and the greeks of cyrenaica, will offer their loyality to them, and sked for their aid.
Untill the come of Alexander the great (Who has been declared as son of Zeus in the berber temple of Amon), the perzians were the greatest power in the eastern parts of the berber land.
The romans:
the romans had wars against the carthagers to dominate the mediterranean see because of it great interest for the commercial routes.
But after the attack of Hannibal they realized how that part is dangerous. so even after they defeated the cartagians, they destroyed it so that the berbers won't build a new carthago.
after the roamans could destroy the berber kings, they rebuilt cartago, and conquered the the northern lands of the berbers.
It is very probable that they called the berbers "barbarians", but the berbers were generally known as "Numidians", Moors, getulians, afer (and with the name of their tribes).
And it is very clear that not only the berbers were called "barbarians" by the romans. So, Why are the berbers the only people who got this name, since the other people had this nickname too ? Why do the word "berber" refer to a folk whereas the word "Barbarian" is a general word for the barbarians (thus the berbers and non-berbers) ? why are the berbers unknown to the historians although they studied the history of the romans ?
The key: You have to know that the person who called the berbers with this name, is the writer of their history, and their mout.
Of course it is the arabs and the berbers who believed they are arabs.
It is the arabs who used the term "barbar" to refer to the berbers as folk, not as generla name for the barbarians. it is the arabs and the arabized berbers who used to refer the berbers with this name. and maybe, in the fourtheenth century the europeans would adapt this name from the arabs like as they adapted many words from them.
But how is the name "Barbar/berber" interpretted by the arabs ?
According to them, Barbar was the ancestor of the berbers the som of Mazigh (not me ) the son of canon the son of ham (some people called us hamitics, btw) the son of noah. This means automatically, that ancestor of the berbers (Ham at the top) is the borther of the arabs's ancestors (Sam at the top), and they both are sons of one father "Noah", so they have one father (The conclusion).
The arabs (and the arabized berbers) tried already to establish this connection when they claimed that the berbers are originally from Yeman.
the people who believe that the word "berber" is derived from the greek word "barbarian". believe that it is of Greek origin. and it has been adapted by the romans who used it a general word for all the people who weren't romans (They maybe called the greeks "barbarians").
From what i read the barbarians of the romans were somehow elastic. they called all the non-inhabitants of rome barbarians in the beginning, and later all the people who didn't belong to the roman empire (especially the germans, i think).
But i wonder why they believe that the word is of greek origin since they and the romans speak an indo-european language. it might be a common word in the both languages.
When you read that the word "berber" is derived from the greek word "barbarois" (supposing it is true), that doesn't mean the berbers where known as berbers or barbarians to the greeks. NO, the greek called us Libyans. every berber was libyan to the greeks.
I don't remember that herodotus who wrote about the berbers tribes called them "berbers" or "barbarois". he called them as tribes, and each tribe has its own name. and he called them generally as "libyans".
It is true that some greeks called them "barbarians", but you can hardly find it (i think), and this was absolutely not restricted to the berbers. and the question is: If the word "berber" is derived from the greek word "barbarois" (i don't know how it is said in greek ), why did the other people not get the name "barbarian" like as the berbers, then ?
When the greeks firstly came to north africa (to the land of the berbers), they came as guests claiming it is the wishe of the delphi's oracle (if i recall correctly), but they were not welcomed in the first time, and accordingly, they went back to their homeland in Troye, Nevertheless, the strategy of the greeks depended on that penetration, so they went back to the land of the berbers, and they were refused by many berber [Libyan] tribes, untill they became welcomed by a berber/libyan tribe known as the esbostay, there learn some technics (shariots with for horses, as example), there they followed the berber traditions (like as the horses's race to merry a women), and there they worshiped some Berber deities (Like as "Amon" that they mixed with their greatest god "Zeus"), and even the city they founded was called after a berber giant called cyre that they made as wife of Apollo. Cyrenaice is named to this goddess. Wich shows that they established peacefully among the Berbers.
From what i read they established there for estrategic reasons in the cader of their wars against the Cartagians.
Those greeks who established amon the berbers will be considered as non-greeks (or greeks of the second degree), that led to a confusion towards the berbers who couldn't decide wheter they were foreingers of Berberizeds.
One of the historians said that the greeks could easily defead the carthagians, and this let the carthagians ask for the alliance with the berbers out cartago (it is said that the army of cartago who mainly berber) which brought the power's balance to an equivalence for a period (from what i read).
But after the greeks of cyreaince could improve their politic situation they invited more greeks from their homeland to establish among them, but the berbers were not satisfied with that, because that would let them permamently lost their influence in that land. As result, they asked for the aid from The pharaoh "apries" who was eventually "Berber" of origin (from what i read). But for a reason or another one they lost the war.
Unluckily for the berbers, "Apries" would later set out, and the greeks will became the owners the politic decidins through their client pharaoh 'Amassis'. Because, the berbers not only lost their ally in egypt, but the greeks themselves will take advantage of their new power in egypt to establish their influence in Cartage.
The berbers in this period, will ally again with cartage, and they indeed seemed to be in the winning side. But yet unluckily for the berbers, another growing power appeared in the mideterranean see, it is rome.
The cartagers had to fight against the romans, and so, the berbers lost their ally. This meant that the berbers had to fight alone in this war against the greest, and this did the libyans. In the war of "Leukon" the greeks lost about 7000 soldiers with high formation, according to herodotus.
But yet unluckily for the berbers, the perzians will dominate "egypt", and the greeks of cyrenaica, will offer their loyality to them, and sked for their aid.
Untill the come of Alexander the great (Who has been declared as son of Zeus in the berber temple of Amon), the perzians were the greatest power in the eastern parts of the berber land.
The romans:
the romans had wars against the carthagers to dominate the mediterranean see because of it great interest for the commercial routes.
But after the attack of Hannibal they realized how that part is dangerous. so even after they defeated the cartagians, they destroyed it so that the berbers won't build a new carthago.
after the roamans could destroy the berber kings, they rebuilt cartago, and conquered the the northern lands of the berbers.
It is very probable that they called the berbers "barbarians", but the berbers were generally known as "Numidians", Moors, getulians, afer (and with the name of their tribes).
And it is very clear that not only the berbers were called "barbarians" by the romans. So, Why are the berbers the only people who got this name, since the other people had this nickname too ? Why do the word "berber" refer to a folk whereas the word "Barbarian" is a general word for the barbarians (thus the berbers and non-berbers) ? why are the berbers unknown to the historians although they studied the history of the romans ?
The key: You have to know that the person who called the berbers with this name, is the writer of their history, and their mout.
Of course it is the arabs and the berbers who believed they are arabs.
It is the arabs who used the term "barbar" to refer to the berbers as folk, not as generla name for the barbarians. it is the arabs and the arabized berbers who used to refer the berbers with this name. and maybe, in the fourtheenth century the europeans would adapt this name from the arabs like as they adapted many words from them.
But how is the name "Barbar/berber" interpretted by the arabs ?
According to them, Barbar was the ancestor of the berbers the som of Mazigh (not me ) the son of canon the son of ham (some people called us hamitics, btw) the son of noah. This means automatically, that ancestor of the berbers (Ham at the top) is the borther of the arabs's ancestors (Sam at the top), and they both are sons of one father "Noah", so they have one father (The conclusion).
The arabs (and the arabized berbers) tried already to establish this connection when they claimed that the berbers are originally from Yeman.