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Post by Dienekes on Sept 13, 2005 4:32:44 GMT -5
I didn't say I do not consider medieval Romans continuous with ancient Romans. There was mixing in Rome and Latium, as always happens, but I don't think there was such mixing to stop the continuity. My point is that medieval Romans were not the ruling/privileged class of the SRI, Germans were. And also before SRI Romans had been loosing their grip on the Empire, in favour of other populations. I think we are talking past each other. When I say "medieval Romans" I am not referring to the conquered Latins of Italy, but to the Romans, as in "citizens of the Roman Empire". Of course I do not consider either the conquered Latins of Italy or their Germanic conquerors to be Romans in the civic sense. |
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 13, 2005 4:38:31 GMT -5
You are right. It all lies in the definition of "empire". How would you define "empire"?
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Post by Dienekes on Sept 13, 2005 5:00:44 GMT -5
You are right. It all lies in the definition of "empire". How would you define "empire"? I'm not sure what the definition of "empire" has to do with anything, but I guess that a good definition of empire is a state ruled by a single individual who calls himself Emperor, and which rules over a wide assortment of peoples and lands. |
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 13, 2005 5:36:06 GMT -5
Under this definition it has not much sense imo talking about the "Roman" or "English" empire, we should be talking about Caesar's, or Vespasiano's empire. However, as this is only a "on words" dispute, I guess we can stop here.
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Post by penetratorx on Sept 13, 2005 6:09:40 GMT -5
<< Besides the point that Arminius was a Roman trained soldier ,ally and a traitor,who cowardly ambushed his friends (only 3 legions where wiped out) ... your Arminius was hunted down By General Germanicus Claudinus,his wife put in chains, his armies where defeated ,those that werent switched sides and even fought eachother. Germanicus found the remains of the Romans massacred by Arminus and buried them with high honors and recovered the legion's eagles ...Rome won! Arminius was hardly a traitor, even though he had served in the Roman army the Romans were not his people, he was a German and therefore he took the side of his people against the invader. The Romans did try to capture him but never did and the only reason they captured his wife was because she was betrayed and delivered to them by her own family who despised Arminius, and Arminius himself was never captured by the Romans, he was murdered by the family of his wife. Sure the Romans regained some pride by recapturing their lost standards but depending on what source you read they may never have retrieved them all, and since the sources are Roman they cant be relied upon too much to be impartial. And of course after the Romans never again tried to expand beyond the Rhine so not sure what kind of victory it was for the Romans, seems more of a defeat to me. Legend has it that as Augustus lay dying the last words he uttered were "Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions"  The great Arminius |
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Sept 13, 2005 6:19:08 GMT -5
Heh, once a barbarian, always a barbarian. Kind of like those German Americans who sent their sons overseas to fight for the fatherland during WWII.
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Post by eufrenio on Sept 13, 2005 7:01:30 GMT -5
Heh, once a barbarian, always a barbarian. Kind of like those German Americans who sent their sons overseas to fight for the fatherland during WWII. Were there many cases of defection? I am aware of some Argentinian Germans returning to Germany before the war when the III Reich made an international appeal to all ethnic germans the world over to help them build the Greater Germany. |
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Post by Melnorme on Sept 13, 2005 9:36:13 GMT -5
Legend has it that as Augustus lay dying the last words he uttered were "Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions" I don't think this is a 'legend' : according to ancient historian Suetonius he said this upon hearing of the loss ( not on his deathbed ). |
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Post by penetratorx on Sept 13, 2005 11:12:20 GMT -5
I don't think this is a 'legend' : according to ancient historian Suetonius he said this upon hearing of the loss ( not on his deathbed ). That is true but I also once read that he was often heard to utter it afterwards in times of stress and on his deathbed. It's probably bullshit ! When King George V of England died it was reported that his dying words were "how is the Empire", recently it has been revealed that his actual last words were "bugger Bognor" |
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Post by Crimson Guard on Sept 13, 2005 11:56:28 GMT -5
The Roman sources are impartial? Well thats where you get all your only real info on Arminius from!  ;D German Nationalists started reinventing him 500 something years after his death,hence that statue. Arminius was a traitor period ... he was a Soldier and Alley of Rome ,his people where also allies and friends of Rome. He took the opportunity to seize the chance thinking he could create his own Kingdom of united Germans and defeat the Roman Power in the Rhine and take it for himself...he was sadly mistaken. Nothing but opportunist treacherous scum,who had some initial success that was short lived! . Most of the Germanic tribes at that time where actually pro-Roman as the Imperium brought them many good things including stability to the region which mainly warred with itself. Anyway Rome Won,its Eagles flew once more! |
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Post by penetratorx on Sept 13, 2005 13:05:27 GMT -5
. Anyway Rome Won,its Eagles flew once more! But not east of the Rhine ! |
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Post by Crimson Guard on Sept 13, 2005 15:00:40 GMT -5
They didnt have to....
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Post by Cerdic on Sept 14, 2005 3:23:32 GMT -5
Legend has it that as Augustus lay dying the last words he uttered were "Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions" I don't think this is a 'legend' : according to ancient historian Suetonius he said this upon hearing of the loss ( not on his deathbed ). Suetonius said Augustus was banging his head against a doorpost as he was exclaiming the words. Suetonius also reported that Augustus' two favourite sayings were: "Quick as boiled asparagus!" and "A raddish may know no Greek, but I do." Liked his vege it seems! |
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Q. Valerius Priscus
Full Member
The primitive peoples are pushed to the wall, and the overlords are Alpine broadheads -G.Taylor 1931
Posts: 107
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Post by Q. Valerius Priscus on Sept 14, 2005 5:16:00 GMT -5
The greatest empire was the Roman Empire. The first Roman Emperors were Alpish through and through. The Roman overlord typus was a stocky Alpinid-Dinarid broad-head ruling over less progressive narrow-headed Mediterranids and Nordids.
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Post by nockwasright on Sept 14, 2005 5:54:05 GMT -5
The greatest empire was the Roman Empire. The first Roman Emperors were Alpish through and through. The Roman overlord typus was a stocky Alpinid-Dinarid broad-head ruling over less progressive narrow-headed Mediterranids and Nordids. QVP I'm starting believing you are a software. |
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;D
