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Post by murphee on Jul 30, 2005 18:48:37 GMT -5
Interesting post I found on another forum: "In 32/33 Stalin set a large quota for wheat, he also started to close off roads into various parts of Ukraine, he ordered soldiers to rip out crops, and to even go as far as to shooting birds and rabbits. Stalin did not like Ukrainians for their refusal to go into collective farms, defined as Kulaks, he wanted to mass murder them for their spirit and nationalism. Here are some links: www.ucca.org/famine/ The number of deaths vary from 7 Million to 10 million and sometimes less. The WORST thing about this, is the denial. Alot of people talk about Holocaust denial, but it is nothing compared to this! For 50 years, historians and news reporters* denied the whole Genocide! Even today people deny it! * During the induced famine, a New York Times reporter went to Ukraine and reported this as a famine and praised the USSR for their help with it, even though he saw it was an induced famine, he was pro-Soviet. Later on he got a Pulitzer or some esteemed award. Today many Ukrainian groups wish that it be removed. I'm sorry I can't provide alot of sources..."
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Post by manabovetime on Jul 30, 2005 23:39:46 GMT -5
I am the grandson of a survivor of the Ukrainian GENOCIDE. Do I care if people "deny" it? Not really. I certainly won't be calling for dissenters to be locked up for "denying" it. However, I'll never let anyone forget that more White Ukrainians died by the hand of Kaganovich and his fellow Jewish Communists, than allegedly died in the so-called "Holocaust" by Hitler.
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Jul 31, 2005 0:28:57 GMT -5
Yes, it truly is time this horrible genocide is brought to light.
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Post by OdinofOssetia on Aug 2, 2005 13:49:44 GMT -5
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Post by CooCooCachoo on Aug 9, 2005 9:57:44 GMT -5
I am the grandson of a survivor of the Ukrainian GENOCIDE. Do I care if people "deny" it? Not really. I certainly won't be calling for dissenters to be locked up for "denying" it. However, I'll never let anyone forget that more White Ukrainians died by the hand of Kaganovich and his fellow Jewish Communists, than allegedly died in the so-called "Holocaust" by Hitler. ...Are you still hungry?
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Outis
New Member
Memento Audere Semper
Posts: 48
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Post by Outis on Aug 9, 2005 14:00:54 GMT -5
I am the grandson of a survivor of the Ukrainian GENOCIDE. Do I care if people "deny" it? Not really. I certainly won't be calling for dissenters to be locked up for "denying" it. However, I'll never let anyone forget that more White Ukrainians died by the hand of Kaganovich and his fellow Jewish Communists, than allegedly died in the so-called "Holocaust" by Hitler. The jewish holocaust? Do not doubt it, not even in the slightest details, otherwise you'll soon find someone ready to label you as a nazi. This sure is an itchy issue for people living in the West, as here we just went through sixty years of propaganda that made us believe that the supposed jewish 'holocaust' of the '40s was the sole and only massacre deserving to be remembered. On the contrary, even in the high numers of the jewish-zionist propaganda (the famous six millions), the jewish 'holocaust' was nothing more than one among many other atrocities committed by man in the last centuries. The problem is that it has been cunningly used as a weapon to justify the zionist occupation of Palestine and as a way to obtain money by blackmailing european countries. We reached the absurdity to legally forbid any form of research or revision within the numbers and the methods supposedly used to exterminate jews. Holocaust revisionism is a crime in many european countries! In my opinion historical research must not be subject to any form of legal interference (if, obviously, you are not using history as a weapon to further a political agenda). As for the crimes of communism, as well as for the ones of capitalism, sadly not many lights have been spreaded on them until now. After all capitalism and communism were the winners of the second world war... So what about the armenian genocide committed by the turks at the beginning of the last century? And the millions of slaves who died in Congo during the rule of King Leopold of Belgium? Researchers talk of the death of 4 up to 8 millions of indigenous people... Check this book to know more: Adam Hochschild, King Leopold's Ghost. Here in the west there is only one 'genocide' that the media keep remembering us, the jewish one (or supposed jewish one, as I don't buy the propaganda anymore). A salute.
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Aug 9, 2005 14:31:52 GMT -5
I agree with you, Outis.
The Jewish massacre is nothing special.
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Outis
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Post by Outis on Aug 9, 2005 15:00:16 GMT -5
I agree with you, Outis. The Jewish massacre is nothing special. Hey Mike, I think that massacres, although sadly recurrent through the ages, must always be studied and considered for what they truly were, and not for what others want us to believe happened. That's why I am advocating freedom of research upon all subjects. Revisionism, as stated by one of the most important italian historians of the last years, Renzo De Felice, " is nothing but one of the basic routines in the study of history" (my rough translation). The jewish massacre has not been the only one and no one can forbid researches to study its reality by resorting to legal means. That's an important thing to acknowledge, what I feel to be a basic issue of intellectual freedom. I am not interested to minimize nor downplay the jewish massacre, but simply to let researchers study this matter and then sort out the truth. An interesting book I feel to recommend is Norman Finkelstein's 'The Holocaust Industry'. Well, enough of this, let's get back to the subject of the post. Greets.
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Post by Ilmatar on Aug 11, 2005 8:02:37 GMT -5
Mike and Outis, I think that you have totally missed the point when talking about the Jewish holocaust.
The holocausts - the Jewish, the gypsy, the gay, the communist etc. holocaust - carried out by the Nazis were indeed a very special one in the history of the humankind. It's special. was carried out with an industrial precision. It is one thing to let people starve to death - it really doesn't call for that much of a planning. Catching people, separating those who still are "productive" from those who aren't, "eliminating" those who aren't productive with a method planned to be cost-effective and hygienic and keeping those who are "productive" alive just as long they are productive, is quite different from just letting the people starve and shooting the ones who rebel.
So, the atrocity of the Jewish holocaust doesn't lie only in the number of the victems, but in the way it was carried out. This doesn't, of course, mean that other massacres shouldn't be remembered, but it does indeed make the Jewish holocaust stand out.
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Post by OdinofOssetia on Aug 11, 2005 11:12:10 GMT -5
Enough of the silly lies Ilmatar: 1) There was no real gay holocaust; the Nazis themselves were the biggest gays, and detailed researched has shown that the alleged Nazi persecution of gays has been blown out of any proportions. In any case, it was surely not a holocaust. 2) The atrocity of the Nazi holocausts does lie in numbers; can you give the numbers for the other holocausts? 3) If you still can't read, don't forget that in Soviet Ukraine nobody was left intentionally to starve to death. Check these links:www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node68.html#SECTION00800000000000000000wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-Truth.html
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Post by murphee on Aug 11, 2005 11:27:26 GMT -5
I believe that the Jewish Holocaust is unique because it was the first to be 'highly mechanized.' All genocide is equally horrific. There reaches a point when the number of dead boggles the mind; it is difficult to fathom the magnitude of genocide.
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Post by OdinofOssetia on Aug 11, 2005 11:29:18 GMT -5
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Post by murphee on Aug 11, 2005 11:31:22 GMT -5
I don't. What I post are varying views of history which are and always will be up for debate.
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Post by OdinofOssetia on Aug 11, 2005 11:35:37 GMT -5
I don't. What I post are varying views of history which are and always will be up for debate.
What you post is a bunch of defamatory Ukrainian Nazi propaganda, and it surely did not looked like something "just up for debate" when you posted it.
But keeping this in mind, should you not also post some Holocaust-denial articles? I guess that would be in line with your "enlightened ideals".
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Post by murphee on Aug 11, 2005 11:39:19 GMT -5
No. I made the original post because I saw the statement about the Ukrainian famine on another board (A subject I know very little about). I placed it here not for 'Nazi propaganda" but to get a discussion going where I will learn something. Holocaust denial is something I do know about and have no interest in posting about it here.
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