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Post by Mike the Jedi on Aug 2, 2005 9:48:44 GMT -5
Albanians speak the only living descendant of the Thraco-Illyrian language branch. It would only make sense for them to be descended of Thracians.
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Post by Crimson Guard on Aug 2, 2005 11:10:21 GMT -5
Mike! Illyrian,not Thracians...But their was alot of Greek Colonies and Italian colonies that settled in this land.
Cerdic your misinformed! "Albania" does not come from some scottish origin...theirs no relation to that Medieval Latinization .
The Latin name Alba,has been in use far longer than the Scotish counterpart,not to mention their was another Albania in the Causases region not to far from Georgia,which the Romans gave the same name to.
Alba Longa in latinum where you also have the Alban lake and Alban Mount.
*Albania is said though to have gotten its name orginated from the Illyrian tribe called the Albanoi... or from the river Arba.
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Post by Mike the Jedi on Aug 2, 2005 11:17:58 GMT -5
Yeah, but I meant Thracian not as in coming specifically from the region of Thrace, but in the wider sense of Thraco-Illyrian, which is an ancient family embracing pretty much every region of the Balkans north of Greece (Thrace proper, Illyria, Dalmatia, Dacia, etc.).
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geo
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Post by geo on Aug 2, 2005 13:37:37 GMT -5
As for Georgios Kastriotis, no one knows for sure but chances are he was not Greek. He could have been part Slavic if his mother's name was Slavic. JUDJEING by the NAMES, he was part slav - part greek depending on which side you take to continue the generation. He was the son of Ioannis Kastriotis, who was a 'timariotis' (provincial ruler) in the despotato of EPIRUS. He (ioannis) had his sons taken captive by order of the Sultan Murat the 2nd in 1415, to have them brought-up as janissars and to ensure their father's loyalty . Eventually they were all assasinated save the youngest georgios kastriotis, whose good looks made an impression on the sultan (how grapfic). He was titled ISKEDER BEY, 'alexander lord', a title in honor of alexander the great. Modern albanians mistakingly call their hero by a corruption of the turkish title, 'skanderbeg'. Georgios kastriotis eventually threw his islamist upbringing to the trashcan and came to be a somewhat pointy thorn on the behinds (meaning the south) of the rapidly-growing ottoman empire. Ahmed Mufit, the biographer of Ali Pasha writes: "In 1443 there escaped from the ottoman camp of Moravas the greek ruler Kastriotis". Marini Barletti calls him "Epirot prince" and "Ruler of the epirotes". His resistance action included figures such as krokodilos kladas, who nearly blew up the 1479 treaty between ottoman empire and venice when fighting the turks around mani in pelloponese, he declared doing that in the name of venice, resulting of a venetian bounty over his head. Now IF his affiliation with the teachings of Georgios Gemistos PLITHON that diinekes showed above holds truth, he can be called a greek in ethics. I purposedly leave RELIGION matters out of this, as they can only perplex things and be the source of unjustified hatred. He (georgios) later got married to Androniki Komnini and gave birth to a son named after his grand-father, ioannis. Mushaci was a well known Albanian family in those days. Yet he himself claimed ancestry from past Epirus. Alb identity grew within the Despotate of Epirus and so they identified themselves as a people who descended from Epirotians... Do you mean that they did not actually descended from Epirotes, only living within the despotate of Epirus made them think so? What do you know better than they? What are your sources? Also I wish you would look at the full quote instead of just a selective part. You are giving a bad translation in english (prob. from italian) from the website of some immigrants remembering their roots in an italian village. Give a link to the prototype. -IOT is commonly added in Alb to mean a person from a certain area for Himare, we say "Himar IOT or when we refer to the himariot we often use Himar ioti, this very much complies with the theory that Scanderbeg, George Kastrioti, came from the area of Kastrati in northern Albania. 1. In that case he should be called KASTRATIOTI. 2. It is not Himare, it is Himaira. Learn to use the original name for your places. 3. Your linguistic acrobatics can get you to a dangerous place. We have the famous historian diodoros sikeliotis born in sikelia/sicily in 80 BC. Might he also be an albanian? 4. It is good that you use endings in -ioti this way. It shows you're not so distantly related to greece. Alban was the name of Scotland. It was probably the name of the Pictish kingdom (or at least the Southern Picts) before Kenneth MacAlpine of the Dal Riada Scots became king of both the Scots and the Picts. That's interesting, because the roman term for scotland was Kaledonia. Perhaps you mean the greek name not only for scotland but for the whole british isle, Albion? I see a certain pre-occupation in albanians that they are some warrior-people, perhaps more that their neighbours. Lets not forget that during wwII it was the greeks that drove back the Italian army nearly over half the albania. Also i see the same pre-occupation that the albanians are lazy for learning and made for physical work etc. These pre-occupations are false and can only harm the healthy-thinking albanian.
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qnzkid711
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Post by qnzkid711 on Aug 2, 2005 14:23:06 GMT -5
No because we replace endings. For Kastrati we replace ATI with IOT. As for Himare. Thats how we say it. Thats why we say HIMARIOT we replace the ending. Here are Albs with the name Kastriot today www.google.com/search?q=kastriot&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8Who was the daughter of George Arianiti Komneni. According to Henry Hodgkinson, a historian who did a history on Scanderbeg " George Arianiti of Kanina castle overlooking the Valona bay, the first Albanian leader to inflict defeat n the Turks." Arianiti claimed partial decent from the Komneni family. This probably came when Micheal Comnenus made an alliance with Albanians against the Venetians " Comino ARIANTI COMNENO, nobiluomo albanese, discendente in via femminile dalla famiglia imperiale bizantina dei Comneni, Governatore di Valona e Kanina (viv. XIV-XV sec.)" www.sardimpex.com/files/ARIANITI%20COMNENO.htmHe held partial decent from the Byzantine family. " A prince from the overthrown Byzantine ruling family, Michael Comnenus, made alliances with Albanian chiefs and drove the Venetians from lands that now make up southern Albania and northern Greece, and in 1204 he set up an independent principality, the Despotate of Epirus, with Janina (now Ioannina in northwest Greece) as its capital." www.country-studies.com/albania/the-barbarian-invasions-and-the-middle-ages.htmlScanderbeg was not the only Albanian to claim descent from ancient historical figures and people Read the chronicles of Musachi www.albanianliterature.com/html/authors/prose/musachi.htmlDid you see the title of the Albanian- Latin dictionary I showed? It was entitled Latin-Epirotic dictionary. at came from that era. Here it is; albanianliterature.com/graf/authors/bardhi.jpgActually this translation is makes himn seem less connected to Albanians, the real script is; i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/XpoFERENS/scan0027.jpgStarts under 12 i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/XpoFERENS/scan0028.jpgi4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/XpoFERENS/scan0029.jpgi4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/XpoFERENS/scan0030.jpgAlbanians call him Scanderbeg because thats the alias he kept for himself. First, where do you have info on this Ioannis? Second, Albanians were part of the Despotate of Epirus. img96.imageshack.us/img96/6725/1200byzantineempire7ei.jpgNo, Im saying that thats what they defined themselves as. Your using modern knowledge and thinking they knew the stuff we did. Its wrong The throwing of his religion wasnt enough to throw out his nephew, who was a muslim by birth and he had the name Hamza. Who exactly is this character? Branilo Kastrioti was the result of a misstranslation so if you are bassing him on this character then it wont work. Here is a Vatican biography of Scanderbeg shopper2.123city.net/SponsorAds/586-855-1476/1263_scanderbegcatholic-world1876.pdfCan you please find the character in question? Do you mean John Kastrioti? Ioannis = John? If so there is no proof that he was a Greek. he was a ruler in Northern Albania which was called afterwards Scanderbeg's country. I also suggest looking at Holberg, another person who did the history of Scanderbeg in the 18th century. Unfottunately, he died before he published his works. " Barletius - and Holberg - is telling about the clashes between the Albanian princes; we understand that Scanderbeg was the leading Albanian prince who could-and-would fight the Ottomans; he united the Albanian princes, but he was not followed unanimously, and some of the princes - from time to time - allied themselves with the Ottoman Sultan." bjoerna.dk/albansk-historie/Holberg-on-Scanderbeg.htm"This hero, whose feats of valour are almost legendary, was bred as a Moslem at the court of Murad II to whom he had been given as a hostage by his father, an Albanian chief..." (Paragraph II, Line XV)www.newadvent.org/cathen/01253b.htmNo but you just said the rule complies to greeks also. Considering that Kastrati is in northern Albania. its is very unlikely that John was Greek. And in the 1400, he is already recorded as the ruler of Imathia in northern Albania. before this Ioannis character you are describing. I dont get it. Medieval sources on Scanderbeg mention him as Albanian or Epirotian, for the reason I stated before. Check even the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, when Gibbons gets up to Scanderbeg he stated; " In the list of heroes, John Huniades and Scanderbeg are commonly associated, and they are both entitled to our notice, since their occupation of the Ottoman arms delayed the ruin of the Greek empire. John Castriot, the father of Scanderbeg, was the hereditary prince of a small district of Epirus or Albania, between the mountains and the Adriatic Sea." 16 cf. Gibbon, vol. 5, p. 401-406.This was due to the fact that in that era, Epirus had been overrun by Albanians. Spata's took control of Arta, Arianiti's took control f Vlore, Musachi's claimed they awere the Despot rulers themselves. etc. etc. In fact, Scanderbeg did raids on both Serb lands and Greek lands when he needed supplies. He was recorded to have been forced into stopping his raids on Serb lands by the venetians in an agreement he signed with them and he did raids on Thessaly and Macedonia for cattle and supplies.
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Dean
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Post by Dean on Aug 2, 2005 21:09:50 GMT -5
Albanians are primarily of indigenous Balkan origins. Also, the Albanian language is not strongly related to any living IE languages, making the possibility of it being a recent branch of an eastern IE stock quite remote. In other words, if Albanians had come from the Caucasus 1,000 years ago, then their language would be similar to the IE languages spoken at the Caucasus, but it is not. I am unsure of his sources, but in one of Cavalli-Sforza's books, I think it's in "Genes, Peoples and Languages," there is a question as to whether the Albanian language is older than Greek in the Balkans. I suspected that the ethnonym "Albanian" has Latin etymology; I looked in the dictionary and saw the town Alba Longa, which was a city in ancient Latium.
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qnzkid711
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Post by qnzkid711 on Aug 2, 2005 21:33:55 GMT -5
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Post by Cerdic on Aug 3, 2005 3:50:22 GMT -5
Cerdic your misinformed! "Albania" does not come from some scottish origin...theirs no relation to that Medieval Latinization . The Latin name Alba,has been in use far longer than the Scotish counterpart,not to mention their was another Albania in the Causases region not to far from Georgia,which the Romans gave the same name to. Alba Longa in latinum where you also have the Alban lake and Alban Mount. *Albania is said though to have gotten its name orginated from the Illyrian tribe called the Albanoi... or from the river Arba. Someone said that Albania was an old term for Scotland then someone else said it was Alba. I was merely pointing out that the correct form was Alban, whilst admitting that the logical latinisation (which I have never seen recorded) would be "Albania." No I do not believe in any ethnic connection between the Scots or Picts and the Albanians of the Balkans, and have not expressed anything that could be construed (I imagined) to suggest this. Also, I can see no connection, other than the name coincidence between, the Balkan Albanians and the historic Albanians of the regions east of Georgia.
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geo
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Post by geo on Aug 3, 2005 13:50:20 GMT -5
No because we replace endings. For Kastrati we replace ATI with IOT. As for Himare. Thats how we say it. Thats why we say HIMARIOT we replace the ending. Oh I see, in word 'kastrati' the ending is -ati but in word 'himare' the ending is just -e. Here are Albs with the name Kastriot today And here are greeks with the name Kastriotis today. In the white pages of Hellenic Telecommunications Company there are more 'kastriotis' than a search can display (maximum number 50). Have in mind these are not all the 'kastriotis' in greece but the ones with registered telephone numbers on their names. (There is recorded another war-hero kastriotis from the island of poros, immigrant to america, fought in the north & south war and survived, died in 1915, buried in poros. RIP)Who was the daughter of George Arianiti Komneni. There is no male 'Komneni'. The male is Komnenos. Do i imagine correct that you confuse Komneni (greek, female genre) with some albanian name? And there is no Arianiti. The name is Arianitis, also an Epirotean. Arianitis means follower of Arianos or Arios. Commonest greek name of the era, perhaps the greatest representative that i know was the heresiarch of Arianism who spent some time in exile in ILLYRIA, so there you have a possible cause for his name. Scanderbeg was not the only Albanian to claim descent from ancient historical figures and people Kastriotis did well in claiming descent from them. Seems it's you modern-day people that have forgotten their origins and kinships. "The Amphilochians are Epirotai, as also are those nations who inhabit a rugged country situated above and close to the Illyrian mountains, the Molottoi, Athamanes, Aithices, Tymphaioi, Orestai Paroraioi, and Atintanes, some of whom approach nearer to Macedonia, others to the Ionian Gulf ... With these people are intermixed Illyrian nations, some of whom are situated on the southern part of the mountainous district, and others above the Ionian Gulf. For above Epidamnus and Apollonia, as far as the Keraunian mountains, live the Bylliones, Taulantioi, Parthinoi, and Brygoi.
Somewhere near are the silver mines of Damastion. Here the Dyestai had established their sway, and Enchelioi, who are also called Sesarethioi. Then come the Lygistai, the territory called Deuriopos, the Tripolis Pelagonia, the Eordoi, Elimeia, and Eratyra. Formerly each of these nations was under its own prince. The chiefs of the Enchelioi were descendants of Cadmos and Armonia, and scenes of the fables respecting these persons are shown in the territory. This nation, therefore, was not governed by native princes. The Lygistai were under Arravaios, who was of the race of the Bacchiadai. Sirra was his daughter, and his grand-daughter was Eurydice, the mother of Philippos Amyntas.
The Molottoi also were Epirotai, and were subjects of Pyrrhos Neoptolemos, the son of Achilles, and of his descendants, who were Thessalians. The rest were governed by native princes. Some tribes were continually endeavouring to obtain the mastery over the others, but all were finally subdued by the Macedonians, except a few situated above the Ionian Gulf. They gave the name of Upper Macedonia to the country about Lyncestis, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimia. Later writers called it Macedonia the Free, and some extend the name of Macedonia to all the country as far as Korkyra, at the same time assigning as their reasons the mode of cutting their hair, their language, the use of the chlamys, and similar things in which they resemble the Macedonians; some of them, however, speak two languages. On the dissolution of the Macedonian empire, they fell under the power of the Romans."Strabon, Georgaphy 7.7.8 Did you see the title of the Albanian- Latin dictionary I showed? It was entitled Latin-Epirotic dictionary. at came from that era. So? Why does it hurt when the Italians call you Epirotes and it doesn't hurt when they call you Albanians? Why all this desire to be latinized? Marini Barleti was Kastriotis biographer and he calls him 'epirot prince' and 'ruler of the epirotes'. 'Epirotarum Principis' is written on the cover of his biography - according to some 'not the oldest but the most important book found in the National Library of Albania' Actually this translation is makes himn seem less connected to Albanians, the real script is; What is the title or isbn of the book? Albanians call him Scanderbeg because thats the alias he kept for himself. And why call him by his alias and not by his name? Me thinks its the desire to be latinized again. First, where do you have info on this Ioannis? Georgios was of noble origin so his father was noble=owned land. Land-owners at the time were called timariotes, which is the byzantine system of kefalades a little modified by the turks so as to be vassals to the sultan rather than independed land-lords. Georgios kastriotis says that he is descended from epirotes, so his father was epirotis. Second, Albanians were part of the Despotate of Epirus. First, prove that from sources before 1350, when the despotato was collapsed. No, Im saying that thats what they defined themselves as. Your using modern knowledge and thinking they knew the stuff we did. No, you do that. They called their ancestors Epirotes you call them Albanians. It's called anachronism. The throwing of his religion wasnt enough to throw out his nephew, who was a muslim by birth and he had the name Hamza. If you are hot on muslim faith why not make his nephew your national hero? Quit christianity-muslim disputes. Can you please find the character in question? Do you mean John Kastrioti? Ioannis = John? If so there is no proof that he was a Greek. he was a ruler in Northern Albania which was called afterwards Scanderbeg's country. Ioannis kastriotis is a greek name. It cannot prove he was a greek (geneticaly) but when all else have absolute zero its more than enough. I also suggest looking at Holberg, another person who did the history of Scanderbeg in the 18th century. For what? 18th century is 3 centuries later. No but you just said the rule complies to greeks also. Considering that Kastrati is in northern Albania. its is very unlikely that John was Greek. And in the 1400, he is already recorded as the ruler of Imathia in northern Albania. before this Ioannis character you are describing. Excuse me but i don't understand what you are saying. This was due to the fact that in that era, Epirus had been overrun by Albanians. Overrun? Now go tell me the serb is wrong when he claims albanians immigrated from caucassos...
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qnzkid711
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Post by qnzkid711 on Aug 3, 2005 14:55:56 GMT -5
I dont mean population wise... We have admitted that northern Epirus became populated by Albs in this era. I meant that Albanians chieftains began taking control of these territories, like Bua Spata, who took control of Arta. Im not denying what the Epirotians were, I know they were Hellenic. However, maybe through delusion or memory from the past Despotate of Epirus. Which stretched far more north then old Epirus. It was in this Despotate that Albanian identity started. See that Dictionary... Read the book and see the context inwhich he uses the term... Martin Barleti was himself an Albanian from Shkoder. The term he used Epirotians was to mean Albs. It was a mistake, I know. But thats the context inwhich he used it. You have it wrong man. Its just that Albs in that era saw themselves as Epitorians. Im not pissed at anything. I dont get it. Thats just how we use it. I don't know why, I guess youll have to check it out with the linguistical evolution of placenames in Albania to find out. Its also already mentioned that the -i in Kastrioti's name was because Alb's use -i as an ending in most of their names. The name was much more likely to have been Kastriot. For instance, my last name is Pilkati, my uncles, Herri, my cousins fiance, Kondili. Other popular one would be -a at the end. For instance anotehr cousin has Koprencka. This however is not as popular. Im not "hot" on the muslim faith, its just that people use the fact that Scanderbeg was Christian against Albs, when his family was a mixture of things and often it used religion as a political tool for alliances. Personally, I dont like Islam. And his nephew betrayed Scanderbeg eventually... Because thats the alias Scanderbeg used for himself. Read the pages that show the letter to taranto, in the end, it says alias Scanderbeg. Thats what people called him afterwards. And Scanderbeg is a Turkish term, not Latin. it comes from Iskender bey. I believe the original copy of this book is in Vatican records today and the book was called "letters of Scanderbeg". im not too sure anymore. Ill check it out. Im not saying the name isnt Greek. Im saying that there is no record of Ioannis. The farthest back we can go in Scanderbeg family, officially, it John Kastrioti. the ruler of imathia in northern Albania. Well wouldnt Greeks get pissed if such a title was adopted by Albanians? It doesnt hurt as much as it would piss of Greeks, ancient Epirotes are a well known hellenic people, or even if not of actual Greek stock, hellenistic. You would be okay with such a thing? because then, modern politics were not involved... Geo, just one thing. You have have gotten the idea that my posts are for some sort of pro-Latin ideology. There is no such thing, Albania was popularized by everyone, even Greeks and Im sure many would be outraged at the idea of Albanians using the name "Epirotians", last I checked there are still unfinished business with the FYROMians. Yes the book by Martin Barleti, written in Medieval Latin, , is heralded as the Iliad of Albanians.
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geo
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Post by geo on Aug 4, 2005 14:10:51 GMT -5
I dont mean population wise... We have admitted that northern Epirus became populated by Albs in this era. I meant that Albanians chieftains began taking control of these territories, like Bua Spata, who took control of Arta. Im not denying what the Epirotians were, I know they were Hellenic. However, maybe through delusion or memory from the past Despotate of Epirus. Which stretched far more north then old Epirus. It was in this Despotate that Albanian identity started. See that Dictionary... I know the epiroteans were greeks but read what Strabon says: "...With these people are intermixed Illyrian nations, some of whom are situated on the southern part of the mountainous district, and others above the Ionian Gulf. For above Epidamnus and Apollonia, as far as the Keraunian mountains, live the Bylliones, Taulantioi, Parthinoi, and Brygoi..."The genetic borderline between 'autochthonous' nations can never be absolutely defined, like a line drawn between black & white. Already from the days of Strabon (1st century bc) or before, intermixing had occured between epirotai and illyrioi. This means kinship. There are no known conflicts (at least to me) which means the two nations lived in awareness of their kinship. The roman times and the byzantine empire didn't bring great population changes over the wider area which means however illiterate, the populations retained a basic ethnical consiousness. An example of this is seen on the sayings of kastriotis, when he identifies himself as epirotis, descendant of epirotes. The same example re-occurs when the warlords of the greek revolution, however illiterate, identify themselves greeks and claim descent from ancien greeks. People of the time didn't count themselves Epirotai because they were subjects of a byzantine despotate, but because the collective memories of the kin were at work, passing from one generation to the next by the fireplace. (Epidamnos is Durres, the first capital of modern 'albanian' state, just west of Tirana. It was founded by settlers from korinthos and kerkyra)Read the book and see the context inwhich he uses the term... Martin Barleti was himself an Albanian from Shkoder. The term he used Epirotians was to mean Albs. It was a mistake, I know. But thats the context inwhich he used it. You have it wrong man. Its just that Albs in that era saw themselves as Epitorians. Im not pissed at anything. I dont get it. Do you say they made a mistake in calling themselves 'epirotes' and they meant 'albanians' instead? Why this would be unjustified. Even if they did mean something else, this would be illyrians not albanians. Illyrians summarized the local tribes north of epirus and claim descent from pelasgians just as greeks do. The tribe of 'arbanoi' (IF it didn't came from someplace else, therefore not illyrian) was a total minor amongst the Illyrian sects (Illyrika fyla). Ptolemaios o geografos mentions their village (albanopolis) in 2nd century ad. From then they remained just a village, until some westerneers found the name more to their liking than the others, for their own reasons. Marini barleti had a latin name. Show me on which points of his biography to kastriotis he uses the word 'albanians' or anything related. Because if he used epirotes, then you refering to them as 'albanians' is an anachronism. Because thats the alias Scanderbeg used for himself. Read the pages that show the letter to taranto, in the end, it says alias Scanderbeg. Thats what people called him afterwards. And Scanderbeg is a Turkish term, not Latin. it comes from Iskender bey. In his letter to taranto (final page) i read "GIORGIO CASTRIOCTUS ALIAS SCANDERBEG". He puts his name first. Scanderbeg is latin, corrupted turkish. Iskender bey is turkish and not a name but a military title. Im not saying the name isnt Greek. Im saying that there is no record of Ioannis. The farthest back we can go in Scanderbeg family, officially, it John Kastrioti. the ruler of imathia in northern Albania. 1. The son of georgios kastriotis is named ioannis after his grandfather. 2. 'John' is an english name of the middle-ages. It's unlikely that the father of georgios castriotis, a 14th century byzantine provincial ruler (consider the byzantines were hostile towards anything latin), had a medieval english name. 3. Even if the name was latin, it probably was Ioannes or Joannes. See here the evolution of the name 'john'. dictionary.reference.com/search?q=johnWell wouldnt Greeks get pissed if such a title was adopted by Albanians? It doesnt hurt as much as it would piss of Greeks, ancient Epirotes are a well known hellenic people, or even if not of actual Greek stock, hellenistic. You would be okay with such a thing? I would be okay if everyone learned and remembered his origins and kinships a little more. The real question is not albanians or epirotes, but albanians or illyrians and it is for YOU to answer, not me. If anything else, epirotes in albania have no difficulty in self-defining. Epirotes were not illyrians from the ancient times, but the two were akin to eachother and not burning one another's flag as they do now. If albanians adopt for themselves the term illyrians that's ok by me for one. And it would help re-building relations with their historical kinship. because then, modern politics were not involved... Or so you think.... Anyway those are not sychronous or syntopous sources, they were not close to the place and the time. I could mention paganel's Histoire de Scanderbeg of 1855 where he is called a greek. Yes the book by Martin Barleti, written in Medieval Latin, , is heralded as the Iliad of Albanians. That's obviously because he could not write in greek, like kastriotis
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qnzkid711
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Post by qnzkid711 on Aug 4, 2005 14:46:19 GMT -5
We use Gjon to mean John in Alb and Gjoni to mean Johnny. So yes the name is in Alb too. The area inwhich he ruled was given autonomy by the Byzantine Emperor. In the 13th century, it was taken by the Latins and was made a kingdom, the Kingdom of Albania. Afterwards it was an indepedant pricipality. By the 14th century it ceased to be an actual ruled territory. It was its own principality and part of what was called the Principalities of Arbanon. it doesnt have t be latin. Its also used in Albanian. I dont believe in such myths as "autochonous". Especially considering I have a Greek grandmother and a partly vlach father.. And I agree with what your saying completely. I just don't see other Greeks seeing it as the same way. Yes, unless there was some kind of memory based on it, peopel would not be considering such things. The Albanian Musachi, claimed decent from the ancient Molossii. Scanderbeg claimed descent from Pyrrhus etc. But Mehmed II and the Turks then were also called "Trojans". This is a very popular thing during the Medieval era. Anotehr example is Peter Budi. An Albanian Catholic Monk in the 17th century who sent letters to the Cardinal in italy asking for assistance in a large rebellion planned by Albs against the Turks. He claimed decent from the ancient Macedonians. albanianliterature.com/Go to his name, then read the "prose" part. In the letter to the Prince of Taranto, Scanderbeg also writes "I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty."Btw, the letter was translated by a guy named Dick Vara. Who is actual an American. You also have to realize that Scanderbeg never had control over Greeks. His dominion included Epirus in the beginning but it was lost. He then only really controlled territories in middle and northern Albania. home.online.no/~bmatos/artimages/800x600ACFHAAmZaqVB.bmpCould be. He was born in Shkoder and fled when it fell to the Turks. Originally, the book was written so people could come to the aid of Balkans and get the Turks out. He was also recognized as an Arber when he arrived in Italy. The term Albanian does not seem to be used. But neither is he classified as Greek in the biography, he makes a disticntion between the two. The term Albanian was not in use then. That is actually a term popularized through the Byzantine term for us, which was "Albanoi". Again, we never called outselves Albanians. It was an outside term. Now its what popularized. You can also check out Disreali for a biography which says he was Greek. However thsi was suring an era where there was little collective memory of Albanians, whoi were now mostly muslims. Then in the Balkans, Muslims = Turks. Here is a good article that explains stuff from that era: www.elsie.de/pub/pdf_articles/A1993Disraeli.pdfYes, Scanderbeg is. We don't call him such. We call him our version, Skënderbeu. He took the surname afterwards, when he rebelled. Yes its true. However I fidn this true for nearly everyone. Just about everyone or everything you read mentions Scanderbeg and only afterwards say George or Gjergj Kastrioti. I think if we did, we would find alot of pissed of Greeks at our backyard. This discussion has been done many times. And your view seems rare, others don't respond so warmly to it. The Kastriotis is what I find interesting. No other early documentation on him uses that S. They all have Castriota or Castrioti or Kastrioti. Scanderbeg could have been able to write in Greek. We really can't say, as there are now documents alive which show his skills in the language. Whew, man. Im getting worn out. I guess Im going to have to agree to disagree, for now. As a northern epirus Albanian, I cant help but get offended at this comment. We are Albanians and know who we are. Why do we need to forget our tounge and culture? Why do we need to be hellenized? Im happy speaking Albanian with my parents and happy with my culture. I don't see what modern hellenism will bring that will make my life better... Maybe so, but he wasnt the first to propose such a thing. Actually, it was a Byzantine Emperor by the name of Manuel II Palaeologus when he made the statement "All the swarms of Illyrians"[/i], when he referred to an Albanian revolt of on the Byzantine Empire. This is saved in the archives named Letter of Manuel II Palaeologus
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geo
Full Member
hellene
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Post by geo on Aug 5, 2005 13:53:17 GMT -5
We use Gjon to mean John in Alb and Gjoni to mean Johnny. So yes the name is in Alb too. Doesn't it look like a 'albanization' of the english name? The area inwhich he ruled was given autonomy by the Byzantine Emperor. In the 13th century, it was taken by the Latins and was made a kingdom, the Kingdom of Albania. Afterwards it was an indepedant pricipality. By the 14th century it ceased to be an actual ruled territory. It was its own principality and part of what was called the Principalities of Arbanon. What do the above have to do with the name 'john'? If your objection lies in me calling ioannis a byzantine, then thats what he was. Byzantine empire officially fell in 1453. The fourth crusade had plundered the capital in 1204 but the 1000 years-old political structures don't just vanish. The lands in question belonged to the despotate of Epiros which was founded by Michael Dukas, the son of Ioannis Komnenos and cousin of the byzantine emperors Isaac the 2nd and Alexios the 3rd. Ducas considered himself the byzantine governor of the province of Nicopolis (near modern Preveza). The title 'Despot' (a greek name taken in antiquity from the persians) was the highest rank in the Byzantine political hierarchy... The brother and successor of Michael Dukas Theodoros, crowned himself Byzantine Emperor in 1227 though the did not get the recognition of the rest. Theodoros nephew, Michael Dukas the 2nd had his son Nikeforos married to the niece of Michael Paleologos the 8th who had restored the Byzantine empire in 1261. Then there is latin presence in Epirus from about 1270 to 1290 when Byzantine emperor Adronikos the 2nd defeats Charles the 2nd of Naples. In 1306 the latin inhabitants of Epiros are expelled, but from 1320 starts a long era of betrayals and the area changes rulers repeatedly, with the last Byzantine ruling being that of Andronikos Palaiologos the 3rd in 1337. The despotato collapsed in 1359. Ioannis Kastriotis would have been born a couple of decades later. And we have Musachi still in the 16th century refering to "the Emperor" meaning the byzantine emperor. Map of the area in the mid 13th century it doesnt have t be latin. Its also used in Albanian. 'IT IS USED' is totally different from 'IT IS'. I dont believe in such myths as "autochonous". Especially considering I have a Greek grandmother and a partly vlach father.. If that's true, then you should not consider them myths Yes, unless there was some kind of memory based on it, peopel would not be considering such things. The Albanian Musachi, claimed decent from the ancient Molossii. Scanderbeg claimed descent from Pyrrhus etc. But Mehmed II and the Turks then were also called "Trojans". Turks calling themselves troyans is a totally different case to kastriotis and the mushachi calling themselves epirotes. Look what John Musachi says in his 'Chronicle on the descendants of our Musachi dynasty' of 1515: "...I can confirm to you that Andrew Molosachi or Musachi was the sebaston cratos and ruler of Epirus, which in Albanian is called pylloria. He ruled all of Myzeqe and other districts. This Myzeqe is the country of the Molossi and was thus named after them. We have been the rulers of that country from ancient times to the present day and took on the family name Molosachi, but the word Molossia was corrupted and is pronounced Mosachia and in Albanian it is called Myzeqe. This Molossia is in actual fact Epirus, as was mentioned above. It is a part of the whole land to be described below, which today is part of Epirus as far as I remember. I am telling you what I know and what I have heard..."Now read again what Strabon says in his Geography 1st century bc. "...The Molottoi also were Epirotai, and were subjects of Pyrrhos Neoptolemos, the son of Achilles, and of his descendants, who were Thessalians...."Now bring to me an ancient source in such agreement with mohammed the 2nd's sayings. When everybody knows who were the original invading turks. Same goes with the claimings of fyromians. You also have to realize that Scanderbeg never had control over Greeks. His dominion included Epirus in the beginning but it was lost. He then only really controlled territories in middle and northern Albania. Middle and north albanian coastlines were colonized by greeks since antiquity. Your first modern capital was founded by korinthians. Look at this map (though roman) and try to co-relate it with previously quoted Strabo. Again, we never called outselves Albanians. It was an outside term. Then why do you adopt it? You can also check out Disreali for a biography which says he was Greek. No thank you! However thsi was suring an era where there was little collective memory of Albanians, whoi were now mostly muslims. I would say there is NO collective memory of people called albanians. Collective memory can exist between people who share a common heritage. The common heritage in this case is illyrian, not albanian. Illyrians were called the people north of the epiroteans from millenia ago. Town 'albanopolis' is mentioned in 2nd century ad. Arvanites are mentioned by the byzantines in 11th century. Where is the momentum behind this in order to enter the collective memory? Also i seriously doubt that the people of that time were muslim. Muslim was the religion of the foreign conqueror. Kastriotis who expressed the folkish resistance had his faith converted. His flag with a black two-headed eagle on red was clearly a continuation of byzantine war flags. I think if we did, we would find alot of pissed of Greeks at our backyard. This discussion has been done many times. And your view seems rare, others don't respond so warmly to it. If you meet them at your backyard quote some Strabon and then Dionysios Solomos saying "The Nation must learn to consider as National what is True". That will scare away half of them. The Kastriotis is what I find interesting. No other early documentation on him uses that S. They all have Castriota or Castrioti or Kastrioti. Maybe because they were in latin? Scanderbeg could have been able to write in Greek. We really can't say, as there are now documents alive which show his skills in the language. I seriously doubt about that. I guess we need to see his original letters. I searced but strangely no one seems to mention in what language the letters of skanderbeg are written.
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qnzkid711
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"Ai q? nd?rton me djers?, mbron me gjak."
Posts: 32
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Post by qnzkid711 on Aug 5, 2005 14:29:38 GMT -5
[/color] I thought you would bring this up. The Byzantine eagle had been adopted by Albanians since the first principality, in the 1100 to the 1200. it was in use by all Alb rulers. Including Dukagjini (The Albanian who wrote what is considered the Albanian bible, Kanuni), Castrioti and Muzakaj. Here are their signs: Dukagjini: www.frosina.org/uploads/images/dukag.gifMuzakaj: albanianliterature.com/graf/authors/musachi.jpgAlbanians flew the flag of the Byzantines for a long time. I guess many felt they were inheritors of the Despotate of Epirus, which was awarded the military eagle of Byzantium after a certain victory it recieved, forgot the Battle. Similar to how Germans thought they were inheritors of the Roman Empire because they controlled Rome Its more like the Albanized latin derivative. We were under latin rule during those areas for a while. The Kingdom of Albania was ruled entirely by Latins, and contained the lands inwhich Kastrioti ruled. It would be impossible for Gjon to be the english derivatve since Albs had been using that name for a long while but American influence did not pierce until after communism. On top of this, Albs in the era of Scanderbeg were Catholic and Orthodox, so these names were no doubt in use. I was not taling about the era of Kastrioti. I was talking about afterwards, hundreds of years after Albania was conquered. People did not believe the Albs existed anymore since the land was completly Islaminized. Thus, there was no longer any connection between the past mention of Albanians as Epiriots, as it was done in Medieval days. Now, only a Greek, and a Christian one, could make such a claim. That is for the whole century and ceases to show "autonomous" regions. Kruja had since been acting as an autonomous zone between from the Byzantine Empire. here is a quote from Henryhodgkinson's book on Scanderbeg: " So in 1252 they [Byzantines] allowed Kruja to become a vassal state within the Empire, and its inhabitents both within and without the town were completely freed from imperial interference. Thus Kruja was not only a stronghold, but a symbol of indepedance for the Albanians. Such it remained until the western half of the Balkans fell to the rising Serbian Empire." This was done in order to get Albanians to cooperate with John Vatatzes against the Latins on the coast of Dyrrachoin. After the Serbian Empire fell, the era of "Albanian Principalities" began. Were Albs started takin control of the territories of the past Despotate of Epirus. Its in this era that John Kastrioti's name comes up, not in Greece, but in northern Albania, where he was playing alliances between the Venetians, Turks and Serbs. Yep. The land called Illyria was simply inhabited by Illyrians, however the Roman name for the province was Epirus Nova, obviously meaning New Epirus. This would go on until the dissolution of Byzantium and the creation of the Despot of Epirus. We HAVE many of his original letters, their all saved in Vatican Records and the book I showed has them scanned. They are all written in Italian. We don't have his letters to the Sultan, but considerinfg he was a Janissary till his late 30's, he most likey knew Turkish. We can also assume he knew Greek due to the fact that it was basically the second language of the Ottoman Empire, but we have no writings of it. What name should we adopt? Our first mention was the Arbanites who were recruited by the Emperor in Durres to most likely fight in the famous Battle of Dyrrachium. We were mentioned under this name in Greek sources. The name of the Latin created kingdom(during their conquest of the Despot of Epirus) was the "Regnum del Albanese". Here is some interesting stuff I will leave you with according to E.P. Stickney, Southern Albania or Northern Epirus in European International Affairs, 1911-1912,Stanford UP, 1926: " Epirotes: A modern Albanian would not call himself an Epirot, for since the rebirth of greece in th 19th century, Ipiros or Epirus has become an administrative region in northwest Greece...but in its classical origin, and as Scanderbeg uses it, it is purely a geographical term." Since Scanderbeg and Albanians in general never had any memory of inading the territories of the Despotate of Epirus, to them, they were descendants from the ancient Epirotes. Ill be able to debate until Sunday unfortunately. Im going on a vacation afterwards...
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geo
Full Member
hellene
Posts: 135
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Post by geo on Aug 23, 2005 9:49:39 GMT -5
Similar to how Germans thought they were inheritors of the Roman Empire because they controlled Rome A counter-example: its like native american indians that are largely 'americanized' to claim european descent. I don't think they do. Great military achievements (empires) were inspiring to people from time to time, but being inspired by an empire is not our case. Constantine the great renamed greek vyzantion into nova roma (new rome), but the multinational settlers did not claim roman descent. The germans did not claim to be descented from romans also. Kastriotis claims descent from epirotes. We were under latin rule during those areas for a while. The Kingdom of Albania was ruled entirely by Latins But latin rule was from 1270 to 90 plus the orsinis after 1320. Might this be enough to adopt latin names? It would be impossible for Gjon to be the english derivatve since Albs had been using that name for a long while but American influence did not pierce until after communism. Haha where do americans enter the scene? I suppose i let them in with my reference to indians above. Even if 'gjon' descented from latin 'joannes' without any english influences, it would still be unlikely for the father of georgios bearing a name of latin influence in 14th century with byzantine cultural influence still blowing around quite strong... To be done with it, i see it more possible that the name of the man was greek 'ioannes', not 'giovanni', 'joannes', 'john', 'gjon' or whatever. I was not taling about the era of Kastrioti. I was talking about afterwards, hundreds of years after Albania was conquered. People did not believe the Albs existed anymore since the land was completly Islaminized. Thus, there was no longer any connection between the past mention of Albanians as Epiriots, as it was done in Medieval days. Now, only a Greek, and a Christian one, could make such a claim. If the bonds to the past are cut you ought to try to rediscover them. That's all i have to say. And something else. I'm not a christian. here is a quote from Henryhodgkinson's book on Scanderbeg: Dont relate 'byzantines' with 'greeks' too closely. The eastern roman empire was a morpheme of two powers, firstly political and secondly religious. And during its last years the above order was inverted so that the driving power was the church rather than the state. Here is some interesting stuff I will leave you with according to E.P. Stickney, Southern Albania or Northern Epirus in European International Affairs, 1911-1912,Stanford UP, 1926: The writer is mistaken: the term could be deemed geographical if kastriotis would say "we live in ancient epirus" and not "we descend from ancient epirotes". Plus, if the writer is stating the modern "administrative region in northwest Greece" to somehow use it as an argue for the time of kastriotis, he is making an anachronism since the borders did not exist then. Ill be able to debate until Sunday unfortunately. Im going on a vacation afterwards... Kales diakopes. My 2 weeks ended yesterday.
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