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Post by symmakhos on Apr 19, 2004 16:15:47 GMT -5
Is Swedish var (pledge) etymologically related to German wahr (true, veritable) or Russian ver (truthful, loyal, - verny, vera - faith)? ). Possibly both, in a distant past. Russian ver is likely to be a loan-word from Swedish if my sources are to be trusted. My etymological lexicon suggests a semantic origin of the stem in "wary" (=cautious), "aware", from which the significance "true" as well as "surety", "pledge" is derivable. Many thanks for info on Rurik, I'm not very Internet-savvy apparently (have been offline for a few years). Why do you think Putin's Russia is an abomination, btw?
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Post by berschneider on Apr 20, 2004 15:03:26 GMT -5
Why do you think Putin's Russia is an abomination, btw? I did not mention Putin’s Russia per se or Putin per name, I just said that Russian state is an abomination In my guess modern Russia is a better country to live in than ANY former Soviet republics, including the trio of so-called Baltic states. There are apparently many human rights problems, idiotic military conscription that is really nothing else but a barbaric tax on the poor people, unrestrained police and customs which are run pretty much like (criminal) private enterprise. These factors alone do not make Russian state abominable. I classified Russian state an abomination because of its mind-boggling bureaucracy which I find abominable. It took me six months to establish residence in Russia and get all the papers (I guess accomplishing the same is far more complicated and difficult for a Russian passport holder in EU countries, - unless residence is marriage based of course). This is fine. The rest is not. Russia’s problem that it is still stuck in the Soviet past. It did not renounce its ugly Soviet “heritage” and did not embrace pre 1917 Russia, instead it’s an in-betweenie, neither fish nor fowl. It has a rapidly developing capitalist economy and essentially a Soviet state (which is certainly an abomination). Number of permits, permissions and rules is outright mind-boggling (compared with the established EU nations), although I've heard India may be worse in some respects. For example in India foreigners have to use special permits to buy booze, in Russia thank God no one yet needs government permission to get drunk.
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Post by berschneider on Apr 20, 2004 15:11:35 GMT -5
Possibly both, in a distant past. Russian ver is likely to be a loan-word from Swedish i I am not sure Swedish existed as a distinct language in those times, and if it is a borrowing from Swedish, then other Slavic/Slavonic languages might have borrowed the same word from the source, which is possible but not likely. I am sure there are speakers of other Slavic languages here which may shed more light on it, but in Polish these root/stem exists and does very well for itself: WIERny - loyal, keeping pledge, keeping fidelity (Polish -ie- is pronounced like Russian "e," not like German ie) WIARa (pronounced VÄRa, WÄRa) - faith, belief, WIERnosc (prn. VERnosc') - loyalty
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Post by symmakhos on Apr 20, 2004 16:40:13 GMT -5
WIERny - loyal, keeping pledge, keeping fidelity (Polish -ie- is pronounced like Russian "e," not like German ie) WIARa (pronounced VÄRa, WÄRa) - faith, belief, WIERnosc (prn. VERnosc') - loyalty I tread very thin ice here as I do not know any Slavic languages, but may not the Polish be a loan word from Russian? Another possibility is that "varjag" is not Swedish at all, but a Russian denomination of the Nordic invaders/immigrants. I don't know of any example of a word of the stem var/ver meaning pledge in any Germanic language.
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Post by berschneider on Apr 20, 2004 17:07:08 GMT -5
I tread very thin ice here as I do not know any Slavic languages, but may not the Polish be a loan word from Russian? Another possibility is that "varjag" is not Swedish at all, but a Russian denomination of the Nordic invaders/immigrants. I don't know of any example of a word of the stem var/ver meaning pledge in any Germanic language. I would guess not. Polish is as old or older (literary) language as is Russian and the word is of very basic, essential variety, not a recent borrowing from one to another. Note that neither in Polish nor in Russian it means a pledge (in the sense of promise or surety or bond). Words change meaning over centuries, so unless you know exactly what a particular word meant 1000 years ago, an exact comparison can be pointless. Anyway, German wahr- and Russian ver- and Polish wjar- and wer- and rather similar concepts. In Sweden I spotted quite many similar (basic, essential) words which exist in Swedish, Polish and Russian simultaneously and are not necessarily borrowings/adoptations. medical doctor Swedish läkare Russian lekar (meaning closer to medicine man) Polish lekarz (Finnish) lääkäri (likely adopted from Swedish) root/stem Swedish läk versus Polish Russian lek (I don't know about other Slavic language but hopefully someone would chip in) Species of trees and "things" like one very common regional tree Swedish BJÖRk Russian BEReza Polish BRZezina, BRZoza (?) English BERch and German BIRke are obvously of the same origin too. I think war, war/e, wahr, ver, vär is same kind of very basic old word which meaning may have mutated but proto origins are the same.
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Post by symmakhos on Apr 21, 2004 20:02:51 GMT -5
I am not sure Swedish existed as a distinct language in those times Linguists usually count the oldest period of the Swedish language (i.e. as distinct from other Old Norse dialects) from ca 800. Björk: certainly from OIE Läkare: of uncertain origin, "possibly into Germanic from a Celtic language" according to my lexicon. The cases where a stem exists in Germanic and Slavic, but not in other IE languages are peculiar and I think hard to explain otherwise than by loan.
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Post by berschneider on Apr 22, 2004 5:10:51 GMT -5
Linguists usually count the oldest period of the Swedish language (i.e. as distinct from other Old Norse dialects) from ca 800. Björk: certainly from OIE Läkare: of uncertain origin, "possibly into Germanic from a Celtic language" according to my lexicon. The cases where a stem exists in Germanic and Slavic, but not in other IE languages are peculiar and I think hard to explain otherwise than by loan. or some common origin especially if people IN-BETWEEN - like the Finns - do not share the same stem for very basic essential things or animal/tree species which were always there, such as Russian - vOLk Swedish - ULv Polish -wILk German - wOLf English - wOlf (but prounced of course wUlv) but Finnish (in between) is susi Russian -MOLoko Swedish - MJÖLk (?) Polish - MLEko German - MILch English - MILk but Finnish (in between two groups) is maito
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Post by symmakhos on Apr 22, 2004 11:17:05 GMT -5
Yes in these cases a common origin is certain: as you know, Finnish is not an Indo-European language. Latin lupus, Greek lykos are ultimately of the same IE root as wolf, and Lat. lac (lactis), Greek gala (galaktos) as milk.
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Post by Aria88 on Apr 28, 2004 19:44:42 GMT -5
I do not deny the Varangian/Viking/Norse foundation of the modern Russian state in the 9th century CE. What is debatable is the etymology of the name "Russia." An alternate theory is that the word refers to the Roxolani, a tribe of Alans very much in control of the region during the first several centuries CE. Not my own theory, mind you. It has a scholarly genesis, and I haven't yet made up my own mind about this.
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Post by Volksdeutscher on Apr 30, 2004 10:54:08 GMT -5
The Varangians were invinted and went back home. No large scale mixing occured.
Ingermanland is another issue.
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Post by AWAR on Apr 30, 2004 12:01:59 GMT -5
The word 'ver' ( vera, verovati, veriti, veruj etc. ) also means 'faith' in south-Slavic languages ( which had absolutely nothing to do with Swedish or Russian in the last 1500 years ).
The word 'Varjag' could have a meaning in Serbian, that could be translated as 'Loyal' or 'strong in faith', 'trustworthy'.
'Rus' also has the same meaning in Serbian as in other Slavic languages. So, I think it's more probable that these words which appear in both Russian and Serbian are as old ( or older ) than 5th century AD which is some 400 years BEFORE the 'call of Varangians'.
I think it's much more probable that Russians and Scythians/Sarmatians had an influence on Scandinavians, than the other way around.
In fact, the Iranians of the Russian steppes were a very developed people ( for their nomad needs ) during the time when Scandinavia wasn't even properly settled.
It's much more logical that these influences from the Steppe were transfered into Scandinavia via Slavic peoples.
Scandinavians are also much more influenced genetically by DNA coming from eastern Europe, their cultures developed later than those in eastern and central Europe etc. etc.
Even the genetic search for Viking ancestry in Britain was conducted by searching for eastern European DNA, not Scandinavian.
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Noric
New Member
Posts: 10
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Post by Noric on Apr 30, 2004 12:18:14 GMT -5
1) Name of the state – “Russia”: There are (at least) 3 explanations – a) from finnish “ruotsi”; b) from IE or iranian “rox-, ruhs-“ which means “white”, ”main”; c) from slavic “rus-“ which has 2 meanings – first connected with colour: “blond, fair”, and second connected with water – like “rusalka”=”water-nymph”, “ruslo”= “waterway, bed of river”.
We must also ask our serbian friends – as I know the medieval heart of Serbia was called “Ras”, “Rashka”?
There is one more proof of swedish trace – in 839 a group of people come to emperor of franks Ludovic. They present themselves as the ambassadors of the ‘Rus’, but the emperor considered them to be ‘sueones’ and spies. Some scholars say ‘sueones’=swedes…<br> 2) Etnicity of Rurik – the possible “founder” of Russia. He could be (partly?) slavian – from the slavian tribe of ‘obodrit’s. These slavs used name “Rarog”= “falcon, hawk”. Legend says Rurik was a grandson of Gostomysl – a head of Novgorod.
3) Darksphere wrote: “Back in the viking time Scandinavians called Sweden Little Svitjod and Russia Big Switjod”. - As I know, legend says that scandinavians came FROM Big Switjod…
The truth is – we can’t say anything for sure about “Rus’ ” as a state or people before 9th century. There can be found many traces of “rus” from Baltic to Black or even Mediterranian sea – but they are not clear at all.
PS Awar wrote: “'Rus' also has the same meaning in Serbian as in other Slavic languages”. - And what is the meaning?…
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Post by AWAR on Apr 30, 2004 12:25:51 GMT -5
PS Awar wrote: “'Rus' also has the same meaning in Serbian as in other Slavic languages”. - And what is the meaning?… Rus= blonde or rufous ( depending on the region ). Ras was the name of the first Serbian states back in early medieval times.
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Post by Aria88 on Apr 30, 2004 23:05:59 GMT -5
AWAR makes an excellent observation. The Iranian tribes of Scythians, Sarmatians and Alans were dominant in what are now Slavic nations for 1500 years. That's a lot longer than the rule of the Norse. Plus, the former, as AWAR states, were more advanced than the latter. It is a shame that these great "barbarian" peoples, with the exception of Russian scholars, receive so little attention. Just try to find a book on them that is NOT written in Russian! I read The Sarmatians, by Sulimirski, and that's one of the few treatises one can find in English (translation).
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Post by berschneider on May 2, 2004 9:35:52 GMT -5
The Varangians were invinted and went back home. No large scale mixing occured. Ingermanland is another issue. What does Ingria (the proper English appelation of Ingermanland or Ingermannland) have to do with anything, and why did you bring it even up?!
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