Similarities in Cretan and Pontian music

[kynikos]

Being a great fan of Greek traditional music (ask my neighbours! ) I have often wondered about the similarities between the music of the Pontus and of Crete.

Not only is the main instrument used (lyra), incredibly similar, but the whole "style" of the music has many similarities, both in the slow, lyrical and narrative songs, but even more in the energetic men's dances.

Given the distance of the physical separation, I have often wondered if the cause of the phenomenon goes back much longer than one first might think. I have noticed on this forum that links have been pointed out even between ancient Cretans and Lycaeans, and I wonder if we are looking at something really old here.

Would forum members agree that music can in some cases be as valuable a testimony as language?

Does anyone have any documneted historical info on the reason for this similarity between Cretan and Pontian culture?

Thanks

[Aybek]

Flashman said:

I have noticed on this forum that links have been pointed out even between ancient Cretans and Lycaeans, and I wonder if we are looking at something really old here.

Would forum members agree that music can in some cases be as valuable a testimony as language?

Does anyone have any documneted historical info on the reason for this similarity between Cretan and Pontian culture?

Thanks

I did know that there was a similarity between Cretan and Black Sea region of Turkey (Pontic) in terms of music. Can it be a result of migration from the Black Sea area to Crete?

I wonder if dances are similar too. Do you know anything about it Flashman?

But the main instrument lyra or (kemence in Turkish) is widely used from Cental Asia to Arab countries too. There is link between Lyceans, Carians of Anatolia and ancient Cretans but I think this doesn't show us anything about this topic.

I have found an interesting web page www.scimitarmusic.com/pontos/music.html

it says that:

"Pontic music - with ancient rhythms and sung in Pontic Greek (a mixture of Ancient and Byzantine Greek, Ottoman Turkish, as well as some Persian and Caucasian words) - has influenced and been influenced by other cultures of the area"

"Some dances such as Shairanitsa, Kots, Sarigouz, and Lechina are unique in that they have only one melody. Others are imported such as the Russian "Kazaska" and "Tash" a 6/8 dance from the Caucasus, a variant of the originially Daghestani but now pan Caucasian dance Lezginka. "

It seems like this is related with Caucassian Turks.

"There is a relationship between Pontic music and that of Iran, the Caucasus and Central Asia."

Is there an instrument called tulum which is made from animal skin in Crete too? This instrument is very similar to Scottish doodle.


A man playing tulum in a festival.


Traditional costumes


While they are dancing


Another folk dance team

[Artemisia]

My father, who is a professor of theory of music, told me that the folk music of Crete (dances with lyra and so on) are mostly in the Phrygian mode of Greek music. It turns out that most Pontian music is also in the Phrygian mode. What could this mean? Since these two Greek areas were isolated from mainland Greece, they probably kept much of the ancient Greek music and were not much influenced by Western music. You must know that ancient Greek and Byzantine music was in modes, not in the traditional major and minor scales found in Western European music. For example, Byzantine hymns are often in the Phrygian or Aeolian modes. Most Cretan and Pontian music is in the Phrygian mode which accounts for the similarities in the sound.

[kynikos]

Unforunately, I am musically quite illiterate, and so like the art lover "I don't know much about music, but I know what I like!"

Aybek, Cretan music does not use the pipes (tulum), I've never heard them anyway. They are used elsewhere in Greece, epecially the north, where they're called "gaida"



Nevertheless, Cretan has a "style" similarity to Pontian, made a bit softer, perhaps, by the influence of Aegean island sounds. Cretan also uses santuri, which I think is used in all Asia Minor.

There is currently a test Web radio station that plays only Cretan music! I don't know how long they will carry on, but they've been on-air for about a year. Try this
www.digitalart.gr/radio/test1.asx

Also, I am sure that both you and Artemisia know what Pontus music sounds like, but for anyone else interested, some good freely available music is here:
www.pontos.uom.gr/tmp/music.html
I have also put up an mp3 of the amazing pyrreheios here (for a short while only due to space restrictions)
www.aegean.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/hosted/kynikos/mus/pyrreheios.mp3

Other similarities, besides the lyra / kemence, and the style, are the costume, since both seem to wear "vraka" (trousers), rather than the traditional "foustanella"(skirt) of mainland greece. I am not sure if the Pontians wear high boots like the Cretans, but neither wears tsarouhi like the mainland greeks. Oy yes, and something about the headgear.

Difficult to say if the dances are similar. There is a definite similarity in spirit, but it would need a dance afficionado to give us a more informed view. The "shaking" of the pyrreheios is like nothing else I know, except some zulu dances...

========

Now, Artemissia, I can buy the "Phrygian" hypothesis, simply because I like it, and in my fancy, this is what I imagine Phrygian music to have sounded like.

Hardly scientific, but there you go....

I am also having some trouble seeing how Phrygian influence would have extended to Crete, since the movement of popultaion always seems to be in the other direction, or so we are told.

You are the expert, I expect some answers... ;D

I was really interested to hear Aybek's comment that similar music exist in other areas too, I hadn't been aware of it, I'll try find some samples.

Thanks for all the tips.

[Artemidoros]

Thanks for the links guys. Now twopence from another musically illiterate.
I think my untrained ear can hear strong similarities between Pontic, Cretan and Balkan music in some cases, Dipat and Lakhana for example. In other cases Pontic appears to not be closely related to Balkan music but is definitely Caucasian (or from further east). IMO it is a mixture of musical traditions, which is not surprising in the area. I went to listen to a performance of 16th century Ottoman music, years ago. It was nothing like what I expected. They were using instruments of the era like santuri (kanonaki) and there were no vocals. It sounded like the instrumentation that is missing from Orthodox church services. 100% Byzantine!
Another thing is, tulum or gayda exists on the Greek islands and is called tsabouna but I don't think it is used in Crete. Quite a surprise actually, because the Byzantines moved populations from Thrace to Crete over 1,000 ago. Maybe the use of it spread to Thrace later.

[Artemisia]

The Phrygian mode is not Phrygian music, you know. It was just the name of a Greek mode(the others were Lydian, Dorian, Aeolian, Ionian, and Locrian.) The Greeks named it so because it seemed to have a Phrygian flavor and sounded a lot like the music of Phrygia.
If you know any Cretan songs, listen to one that goes like this: "Touto to mina, ton apopano, ton apopano, ton parapano....." Perhaps you have heard this song with a lyra. Another lovely song is "Astro tis Avgis" (not Cretan). They are both in the Phrygian mode and you can immediately hear how different they sounds from traditional Western scales.

[kynikos]

Artemidoros

Quite a surprise actually, because the Byzantines moved populations from Thrace to Crete over 1,000 ago. Maybe the use of it spread to Thrace later.

Yes, that's very interesting, do you have more details or links? I couldn't find anything.

Did this happen in the time of Basil II (Bulgaroctonus) and WHY? Was it a political move?

In which case the emigrees would have good reason to keep their music alive...

All very interesting...

[Artemidoros]

kynikos said:

Artemidoros



Yes, that's very interesting, do you have more details or links? I couldn't find anything.

Did this happen in the time of Basil II (Bulgaroctonus) and WHY? Was it a political move?

In which case the emigrees would have good reason to keep their music alive...

All very interesting...

Sorry, I don't have any links, I just remember reading about it. It was in the time of Nicephorus Phokas, after the reconquest of Crete from the Arabs. The island was depopulated, Arab sources claim the Byzantines killed 200,000 Muslims. They sent missionaries to reconvert Cretans to Christianity and big numbers of settlers. I am not sure why but the Empire was under extreme pressure at the time by the Bulgarians (2nd half of 10th cent.), so maybe there were Thracian refugees in Constantinople needing resettlement. They probably settled veteran soldiers too. Many of them would have been Anatolian Greeks and Armenians, so maybe there is a link with Pontus there...

[kynikos]

Artemidoros

Of course it was!
I don't know what I was thinking of, I'd completely forgotten Nicephorus Phokas! Old age, I guess...

I wonder, then, if it would be fair to state that traditional Cretan music is based on Thracian tradition, tempered by Venetian influences, and perhaps whatever indigenous element had survived the Arab occupation?

[RebelSoul]

Some explainations here are basing too much on similarities of two music idioms... but forget linguistic.

Since I am Cretan (and an all-around knowledgeable guy as well) I can assure you (me and half the linguists in Greece) that the Cretan dialect is the one who preserves the Doric dialect of ancient Greek better than any other known dialect.

Literally houndreds of Cretan words are modernizatio of the ancient Doric dialect, not to mention the funny grammar and syntax that resembles Doric Greek more than anything else.

If you really want to find "cultural" (non-linguistic) signs of the continuum in Crete, please check the Cretan dances as related to the Ancient Greek dances (as much as we know about it).

[kynikos]

Hi RebelSoul

Well, this thread IS about the comparison of the music of the Pontus and Crete.

I would definitely count dance as part of it though, so if you have any definite information linking Cretan dance with Doric rather than Thracian styles I would be very interested.

As far as linguistic comparisons go, I think that is better discussed in the "Linguistics" forum, although, I must say, I thought the dialect closest to Doric was probably Tsakonika, rather than Cretan.

It is also interesting that Pontiaka are supposedly closer to Ancient Greek - althogh I am not sure which dialect.

Hm, I think I'll start a thread in "Linguistics" and ask there...

[Praetor]

Ok,I am not musically illiterate but since we have Artemisia's dad I can also ask some things.

1.During my wild teen days I used to play the guitar in Hard Rock and Metal bands.To compose my solos I used various modes named Lydian Phrygian,Mixolydian etc(I was and still am a big fan of Joe Satriani). I sense some sort of connection between those scales and the things you've mentioned.I'll check my notes of that era and I'll be back if I find something interesting.

2.Pontic and cretan music are connected ,what about Cypriot music then,it is quite near these,isn't so?

[Artemidoros]

kynikos said:

I wonder, then, if it would be fair to state that traditional Cretan music is based on Thracian tradition, tempered by Venetian influences, and perhaps whatever indigenous element had survived the Arab occupation?

I would be judging a book by its cover, since I am unable to read it.

[Praetor]

I checked the stuff I had composed once upon a time.It seems that my soloing is mainly focused on diatonic modes,usually played in three octaves. Pretty simple,I never was much of a musician anyway I found three pieces,one in Dorian,one in Aeolian and one in Mixolydian...

[Artemisia]

My music theorist dad says that Cretan dances seem to be based on Dorian war dances (the Cretans were Dorians, of course!) and Dorian war dances were often in either the Phrygian or Dorian modes of Greek music. I'll ask him in what mode Pentozali is in, but I don't have a Pentozali recording.

Let's also not forget that most Byzantine Greek music is in the Phrygian mode.