National Vanguard on the Celts

[galvez]

unknown said:

There is no SOUTH, only Greco-Roman civilization. Your Iberian ancestors were as barbaric as the Germans were before the Romans civilized them.

ROFL. Looks like I struck a nerve (and possibly someone is flipping IP addresses). I don't doubt that Spain gained a lot from the wonderful Greeks and Romans, but where is your evidence that the Iberians were as barbaric as the Germans, who pillaged and looted Rome on numerous occasions?

[galvez]

Let me also add here that the Iberians (known as the Celtiberians at the time) quickly became Romanized upon Roman settlement and rule in Spain. It became Rome's wealthiest province. Cities and agriculture flourished long before anything comparable existed among Germans -- many centuries before.

Additionally, many Romans settled into Spain, furthering the Romanization of the territory and altering the racial makeup of the province.

[galvez]

Perhaps it's just a coincidence that "unknown" has attacked me and someone I know -- if it is who I suspect it is, all I have to say is that this person is a total loser, by using proxies just to mask his identity from a supposedly "inferior" Iberian.

P.S. While I identify mostly with Spain, my ancestry is actually somewhat pan-European. As I have written elsewhere, I am part French and Irish and have other ancestry. So, if you are going to attack my heritage, please include the aforementioned countries just to be a little more accurate.

[Kukul-Kan]

People in the Iberian Peninsula were not a single unit so their stage of civilization development wasn’t equal. According to Roman sources themselves some tribes in the south had written laws and poems unlike the Northern Tribes who still bathed in urine and killed their offspring before surrender. Paradoxically the North was the last place to be conquered.

Strabo on Celtiberians



But the ocean-coast on the north has none on account of the cold, and, for the most part, the rest of the ocean-coast has none on account of the slovenly character of the people and the fact that they live on a low moral plane — that is, they have regard, not for rational living, but rather for satisfying their physical needs and bestial instincts — unless some one thinks those men have regard for rational living who bathe with urine which they have aged in cisterns, and wash their teeth with it, both they and their wives, as the Cantabrians and the neighbouring peoples are said to do. But both this custom and that of sleeping on the ground the Iberians share with the Celts.


For instance, at the time of the Cantabrian War mothers killed their children before being taken captive; and even a small boy, whose parents and brothers were in fetters as captives of war, gained possession of a sword and, at the command of his father, killed them all; and a woman killed all her fellow captives; and a certain Cantabrian, upon being summoned into the presence of drunken men, threw himself upon a pyre. But these traits too are shared in common by them with the Celtic as also with the Thracian and Scythian tribes; and in common also the traits relating to courage — I mean the courage of women as well as of men. For example, these women till the soil, and when they have given birth to a child they put their husbands to bed instead of going to bed themselves and minister to them; and while at work in the fields, oftentimes, they turn aside to some brook, give birth to a child, and bathe and swaddle it. Poseidonius says that in Liguria his host, Charmoleon, a man of Massilia, narrated to him how he had hired men and women together for ditch-digging; and how one of the women, upon being seized with the pangs of childbirth, went aside from her work to a place near by, and, after having given birth to her child, came back to her work at once in order not to lose her pay; and how he himself saw that she was doing her work painfully, but was not aware of the cause till late in the day, when he learned it and sent her away with her wages; and she carried the infant out to a little spring, bathed it, swaddled it with what she had, and brought it safely home.

As for the insensibility of the Cantabrians, this instance is also told, namely, that when some captive Cantabrians had been nailed on their crosses they proceeded to sing their paean of victory. Now such traits as these would indicate a certain savageness; and yet there are other things which, although not marks of civilisation perhaps, are not brutish; for instance, it is the custom among the Cantabrians for the husbands to give dowries to their wives, for the daughters to be left as heirs, and the brothers to be married off by their sisters.

……….
On the other hand you have the more civilized Turdetanians:


They call the country Baetica for the river, and also Turdetania after the inhabitants; yet they call the inhabitants both Turdetanians and Turdulians, some believing that they are the same people, others that they are different. Among the latter is Polybius, for he states that the Turdulians are neighbours of the Turdetanians on the north; but at the present time there is no distinction to be seen among them. The Turdetanians are ranked as the wisest of the Iberians; and they make use of an alphabet, and possess records of their ancient history, poems, and laws written in verse that are six thousand years old, as they assert. And also the other Iberians use an alphabet, though not letters of one and the same character, for their speech is not one and the same, either. Now Turdetania, the country this side the Anas, stretches eastward as far as Oretania, and southward as far as the coastline that extends from the mouths of the Anas to the Pillars. But I must describe it and the regions that are close to it at greater length, telling all that contributes to our knowledge of their natural advantages and happy lot.

www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/home.html

[galvez]

Kukul-Kan said:

People in the Iberian Peninsula were not a single unit so their stage of civilization development wasn’t equal. According to Roman sources themselves some tribes in the south had written laws and poems unlike the Northern Tribes who still bathed in urine and killed their offspring before surrender. Paradoxically the North was the last place to be conquered.

The Romanization of Spain occurred centuries before anything comparable was found among the Germans. Additionally, there was mixing that took place which altered the composition of Iberians.

[Kukul-Kan]

The Romanization of Spain occurred centuries before anything comparable was found among the Germans. Additionally, there was mixing that took place which altered the composition of Iberians.

Modern Spaniards and Portuguese are basically the same people they were before the Roman conquest and colonization. Foreign elements have been added along history but they have not been strong enough as to change the overall peninsular population racially.

[galvez]

Kukul-Kan said:

Modern Spaniards and Portuguese are basically the same people they were before the Roman conquest and colonization. Foreign elements have been added along history but they have not been strong enough as to change the overall peninsular population racially.

Genetically, perhaps there was alteration. Aren't the Basques the truly indigenous elements of Iberia (in the sense of being insulated for millennia)? They are similar to other Spaniards, but genetically there are differences. Racial mixture among Mediterraneans is not going to be as easy to detect as -- or at least it will be much more subtle than -- say, between Negrids and Nordids in terms of physical anthropology. Besides, I have doubts as to the uniformity in the way Spaniards have been described. For example, my dad is hyperbrachycephalic (a CI of at least 85) and I haven't heard of Alpines in Andalusia.

[unknown]

galvez said:

Let me also add here that the Iberians (known as the Celtiberians at the time) quickly became Romanized upon Roman settlement and rule in Spain. It became Rome's wealthiest province. Cities and agriculture flourished long before anything comparable existed among Germans -- many centuries before.

Additionally, many Romans settled into Spain, furthering the Romanization of the territory and altering the racial makeup of the province.

1) That's because the Romans conquered Iberia 200 years before they ever started fighting with the German tribes

2) Do you have any concrete proof of the Romans altering Iberia's racial make-up?

3) I'm probably not who you think I am to be honest.

4) My point stands that Northern European civilization stems from the Greco-Roman one and has nothing to do with spi...Iberians. You're way too arrogant for someone whose ancestors were just another conquered client..

[galvez]

unknown said:

3) I'm probably not who you think I am to be honest.

Someone has been repeatedly entering this forum with different screennames to attack me, and coincidentally you attacked me and someone I know.

4) My point stands that Northern European civilization stems from the Greco-Roman one and has nothing to do with spi...Iberians. You're way too arrogant for someone whose ancestors were just another conquered client..

This is a strawman because I never claimed that Iberians civilized "Northern Europe." By the way, you criticized me for my use of "South," while you use "Northern European civilization." It's obvious that you are a Nordicist -- especially with your subtle use of "spic."

By the way, I found out that the person who has been harassing me is suicidal. It seems Nordicists don't have their heads together.

[Kukul-Kan]

Genetically, perhaps. Aren't the Basques the truly indigenous elements of Iberia (in the sense of being insulated for millennia)? They are similar to other Spaniards, but genetically there are differences. Racial mixture among Mediterraneans is not going to be as easy to detect as -- or at least it will be much more subtle than -- say, between Negrids and Nordids in terms of physical anthropology. Besides, I have doubts as to the uniformity in the way Spaniards have been described. For example, my dad is hyperbrachycephalic (a CI of at least 85 or over) and I haven't heard of Alpines in Andalusia.

Phenotype depends and is conditioned by genotype. Racial mixture between all Europeans would be more difficult to detect as most Europans are practically clones of each other. I wasn’t talking about the physical uniformity of Spaniards but about their being practically the same people they were before the Romans. However, phenotypically they have the normal sub-racial variation found in most European populations.

By the way, CI alone isn’t a good indicator of race since it can be conditioned by whether, diet and other external factors so the CI can actually change from one generation to the other. However the Spanish anthropologist Pere Bosch Gimpera did find a brachycephalic pocket in Andalusia.

Se nota una relative braquicefalia en el Noroeste (la mayor parte de Galicia, Asturias y Santander) y en Andalucía baja(Sevilla, Cádiz y Málaga), así como en la región extremomanchega.

A relative brachycephaly can be noticed in the Northwest (Most of Galicia, Asturias and Santander) and in Low Andalusia(Seville, Cádiz and Málaga), as well as in the “extremomanchega” region

From “Las Razas Humanas” p. 421.

[galvez]

Kukul-Kan said:

Phenotype depends and is conditioned by genotype. Racial mixture between all Europeans would be more difficult to detect as most Europans are practically clones of each other. I wasn’t talking about the physical uniformity of Spaniards but about their being practically the same people they were before the Romans. However, phenotypically they have the normal sub-racial variation found in most European populations.

By the way, CI alone isn’t a good indicator of race since it can be conditioned by whether, diet and other external factors so the CI can actually change from one generation to the other. However the Spanish anthropologist Pere Bosch Gimpera did find a brachycephalic pocket in Andalusia.

Se nota una relative braquicefalia en el Noroeste (la mayor parte de Galicia, Asturias y Santander) y en Andalucía baja(Sevilla, Cádiz y Málaga), así como en la región extremomanchega.

A relative brachycephaly can be noticed in the Northwest (Most of Galicia, Asturias and Santander) and in Low Andalusia(Seville, Cádiz and Málaga), as well as in the “extremomanchega” region

From “Las Razas Humanas” p. 421.

Your posts have been very informative, Kukul.

[xxx]

unknown said:

What you should have written, SPANIARD:

"...Although who knows how long it would have taken for the North to reach where it is today without the foundations laid by Greece and Rome.."

There is no SOUTH, only Greco-Roman civilization. Your Iberian ancestors were as barbaric as the Germans were before the Romans civilized them.

Every now and then we have to deal with people who, like you, have read a couple of web pages and from them believe they are so knowledgable.

The Iberians had a Civilisation before the Greeks and Romans arrived. This is attested by the many pieces of Iberian art found before and after their contact with the Graeco-Roman world.

The Iberians had their own alphabet long before the Greeks and Romans arrived, and definetely long before the Germanics had any... ha!

As for technology, the Romans adopted the sword of the Celtiberians as it was of superior technology, both in strength and form. They tried hard to obtain the secret of its superior strength, and all they could come out with was that it was due to the waters of a river where they were tempered. Only recently it has been discovered that such swords, known as gladius hispaniensis, contained a composition of titanium.

Only an ignorant animal can see no signs of civilisation and culture in people who lived in those ages.

You probably don't know about Tartessos either, so I suggest you look into the Classic Greek Historians for information about their Civilisation before you open again your mouth.

Some people, and I suspect you are a good example here, like to see things in the most simplistic way as they are not very good at assimilating complexities, small as these may be. And so, they prefer to think of a Roman and a Greek Civilisation which came out of the blue, as if created by magic.

For your information, both the Greek and the Romans took from previous Southern Mediterranean Civilisations before creating theirs. Furthermore, Rome was the product of the mixing with one such culture. This was so because Greeks and Romans were able to assimilate, and therefore to evolve. A few thousand of years later I suggest you take their example and try to first assimilate and later, with a bit of luck, to evolve.

That's because the Romans conquered Iberia 200 years before they ever started fighting with the German tribes

So you ignore the commerce of the Iberians with Phoenicians, Greeks, Punics, etc.. long before the Romans? If you ignore so much, why do you speak this much? The Iberians assimilated Roman culture easily and quick after their conquest because they were a people who already had a culture, they were no barbarians.

Do you have any concrete proof of the Romans altering Iberia's racial make-up?

Since Romans were the product of a mixture between the Mediterranean Etruscan and the Indo-European Latins, speaking of racial make-up alterations is stupid here.

Nonetheless, the day you take a real book instead of lurking through a few pages on Internet, you may learn that Hispania was a province which received a large impact of colonisation by the Romans. The sources are in the Roman documents itself. So much so that a number of Roman emperors were born in Hispania in later times, as well as others like the philosopher Seneca.

I'm probably not who you think I am to be honest.

That's not so important, what it is important as it is sad is the level of ignorance and arrogance we think you have. And that should only be important to you. Ignorance and arrogance don't mix well.

My point stands that Northern European civilization stems from the Greco-Roman one and has nothing to do with spi...Iberians. You're way too arrogant for someone whose ancestors were just another conquered client.

Yes, after destroying it and taking Civilisation to a halt for a period of some 1,000 years. And then, wait for countries such as Spain, Italy or Portugal to initiate a period known as Renaissance.

[galvez]

Mynydd said:

Every now and then we have to deal with people who, like you, have read a couple of web pages and from them believe they are so knowledgable.

[...]

The Iberians had their own alphabet long before the Greeks and Romans arrived, and definetely long before the Germanics had any... ha!

As for technology, the Romans adopted the sword of the Celtiberians as it was of superior technology, both in strength and form. They tried hard to obtain the secret of its superior strength, and all they could come out with was that it was due to the waters of a river where they were tempered. Only recently it has been discovered that such swords, known as gladius hispaniensis, contained a composition of titanium.

Only an ignorant animal can see no signs of civilisation and culture in people who lived in those ages.

[...]

That's not so important, what it is important as it is sad is the level of ignorance and arrogance we think you have. And that should only be important to you. Ignorance and arrogance don't mix well.

I think I know who this person is. He is either who I think it is or a friend.

Anyway, great post! The Iberians also had walled cities before the Roman colonization of the peninsula.

[xxx]

galvez said:

I think I know who this person is. He is either who I think it is or a friend.

Ah... may be we are thinking of the same person. I wasn't expecting to see him on this board.

Anyway, great post! The Iberians also had walled cities before the Roman colonization of the peninsula.[/quote]

Right, cities like Amaia or Numantia in the North. And those were the less civilized areas.

[unknown]

Mynydd said:

Every now and then we have to deal with people who, like you, have read a couple of web pages and from them believe they are so knowledgable.

The Iberians had a Civilisation before the Greeks and Romans arrived. This is attested by the many pieces of Iberian art found before and after their contact with the Graeco-Roman world.

The Iberians had their own alphabet long before the Greeks and Romans arrived, and definetely long before the Germanics had any... ha!

As for technology, the Romans adopted the sword of the Celtiberians as it was of superior technology, both in strength and form. They tried hard to obtain the secret of its superior strength, and all they could come out with was that it was due to the waters of a river where they were tempered. Only recently it has been discovered that such swords, known as gladius hispaniensis, contained a composition of titanium.

Only an ignorant animal can see no signs of civilisation and culture in people who lived in those ages.

You probably don't know about Tartessos either, so I suggest you look into the Classic Greek Historians for information about their Civilisation before you open again your mouth.

Some people, and I suspect you are a good example here, like to see things in the most simplistic way as they are not very good at assimilating complexities, small as these may be. And so, they prefer to think of a Roman and a Greek Civilisation which came out of the blue, as if created by magic.

For your information, both the Greek and the Romans took from previous Southern Mediterranean Civilisations before creating theirs. Furthermore, Rome was the product of the mixing with one such culture. This was so because Greeks and Romans were able to assimilate, and therefore to evolve. A few thousand of years later I suggest you take their example and try to first assimilate and later, with a bit of luck, to evolve.



So you ignore the commerce of the Iberians with Phoenicians, Greeks, Punics, etc.. long before the Romans? If you ignore so much, why do you speak this much? The Iberians assimilated Roman culture easily and quick after their conquest because they were a people who already had a culture, they were no barbarians.



Since Romans were the product of a mixture between the Mediterranean Etruscan and the Indo-European Latins, speaking of racial make-up alterations is stupid here.

Nonetheless, the day you take a real book instead of lurking through a few pages on Internet, you may learn that Hispania was a province which received a large impact of colonisation by the Romans. The sources are in the Roman documents itself. So much so that a number of Roman emperors were born in Hispania in later times, as well as others like the philosopher Seneca.



That's not so important, what it is important as it is sad is the level of ignorance and arrogance we think you have. And that should only be important to you. Ignorance and arrogance don't mix well.



Yes, after destroying it and taking Civilisation to a halt for a period of some 1,000 years. And then, wait for countries such as Spain, Italy or Portugal to initiate a period known as Renaissance.

1) No. Those sculptures and the Iberian alphabet were brought to the barbaric Iberians by the civilized Greeks, some other Eastern Mediteranean seafarers, and the Carthaganians. They did not develop independently. Plus the oldest found Iberian alphabets date from 400 BC, only 200 years younger than Germanic alphabets.

2) Lol@titanium. It was made of primitive iron.

3) They became wealthy only because they lived near rich mineral deposits which didn't need to be mined.

4) Commerce, blah. All those people went to Iberia for metals. Okay, so the Iberians were smart enough to give them the minerals (which they didn't need because they were barbaric!) in exchange for civilized products (like Amerindians trading furs for whiskey and guns hahahah!). You must feel so proud.

5) There were plenty of Roman Emperors born outside of Rome, and not just in Iberia. Big deal.


6) Personal insults, um? That's a sign that you lack any rational arguments.

7) LOL@Portugal creating the Renassaince. That was funny.

I suggest you stop propagandizing your sad history.

And for the wannabe Roman Galvez: There's a 99.9% chance that I have never talked to you before. If you persist in accusing me of being someone else I will contact a rational moderator.