Post by Aybek on Mar 23, 2004 7:35:53 GMT -5
Melnorme said:
What do you think about the 'Alawi' who control Syria?
Sandwich said:
Then one day, the Sunni establishment woke up to find that one of the sectors that was dominated by Alaouites was - the Army! Too late by then.
Aybek, please correct me if any of this is wrong. ?
In fact I do not have enough information about them. I do not know why they are called Alevi and if they call themselves as Alevis. As far as I know they are Arabs and their sect is called Nusayri. There are very few tiny Turkmen population in Syria which constitutes %2-3 of the population. I have read that they are brought there as mercenaries from north of Caspian Sea. But I do not know if they are Alevis or not (most probably yes). In fact in Turkey we did not know that most of Iraqi Turkmens are Alevis too. We have learnt it when they have revolted last summer after Kurds attacked one of the holy place related with Ali in Northern Iraq. In Turkey Alevis were not interested such stuffs of Pan-Turkism or Turanism because of their leftist political stance. We have really shocked when we learnt most of Iraqi Turkmen are Alevis. We felt that we are ignorant.
Alevis of Syria is minority and I do not know exactly if there is free elections in Syria. It is said, no. I do not know to what extent it is important being an Alevi in governing country. If they do not behave Syrian people in justice I do not care if they are Alevis or not I cannot have any sympathy to them.
Flashman said:
The information I conveyed was given to me by an Alevi Leftist ultra-Kemalist. He "worships" Attaturk, but declares himself rather atheist.
Is it possible to say I am Protestant but atheist? This is paradox. But "ateist Alevis" are tend to interpret Alevi identity as a culture and life style. They are right about saying that ethical rules and philosophy are essences of Alevi understanding indeed. I am not agreed with them about the religious issue but I respect them. This is their opinion.
Flashman said:
If there are young "atheistic" Alevis, they still cannot have escaped the (positive) influence of their religion, even if they do rebel against it.
Sorry, but I do not understand your question.
Artemidoros said:
I don't know what Mustapha Kemal was, I have no reason to consider him any less Turkish than yourself, but since you mentioned sea battles, do you know the ethnic background of Hayredin Barbaros-the greatest naval hero of Turkey?
I was talking sea battles in the Gallipoli War.
According to my knowledge he was born in Lesvos-Midilli in 1473, now in Greece. I made a research about him. It is written that his father has participated to the conquest of Lesbos from Venetians in 1462 with the army commanded by Mehmet II the conqueror. His father was from Sipahi troops (land forces) from Vardar (Macedonia). Ýt is said the family went to Vardar from Anatolia. Due to his success in the battle sultan gave him big lands around the village of Bonova in Lesvos. His mother was an Andulisan (Spain) Muslim (very strange indeed). So most probably she was an Arab!!
Hayreddin Barbaros's real name was Hýzýr. But the nickname Barbaros is said French which means red barb (Barb rousse) since he was ginger and Hayreddin is the nickname given by sultan Yavuz Selim.
What do you know about him?
In fact you are right about being suspicious about his ethnicity since there were many Italian, French, Greek, Serbian in the Ottoman navy. The one of the most famous admiral who was not ethnically Turk, was Kilich Ali Pasha. He reached the highest rank in the navy. He also fought successfully in the battle of Lepando but cannot prevent the defeat. But I had never heard about Barbaros that he was not ethnically Turk but it is known that Kilich Ali was ethnically non-Turk but his name is living on one of the best battleship of Turkish navy. Do you confuse Kilich Ali and Barbaros?
Artemidoros said:
I used to know a Turkish Kurd, also an Alevi. He insisted Alevis believe in a mixture of Islam and Zoroastrianism and that light and the sun play an important part in their religion.
Great majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslim. It is said that %15 of Alevis are Kurd. I think that most of them are Kurdified Turks since most of them even if they identify themselves as being Kurd they do not know even a single word of Kurdish. Most of them are radical communists who have suffered during clashes with nationalist Turks especially before 1980. In fact for them it is not important if you are a Kurd or Turk. There were many Alevi inside PKK (Kurdistan Workers Party) when they were fighting in the name of an ideology which was communism. But after the collapse of Soviet Russia PKK has gradually changed its ideology towards ethnic nationalism, which is Kurdish nationalism. Growing Kurdish nationalism leads to a separation inside PKK especially as far as Alevis are concerned. But there are Zazas in Anatolia, most of them are Alevis but they are not Kurds.
There may be some elements from Mithra, and even Christianity inside Alevi beliefs. In facts this is a very long and deep discussion. Every culture has some interactions with each other. But I can say that in almost every religion light and the sun play an important role. As you know the praying time is calculated according to sun in Islam. In Tengri belief of Central Asian Turks the god was being symbolized by sky and the sacred color was blue. Light was also very important.
Artemidoros said:
He also considered Alevis as nominal Muslims. What is your position?
I am a Muslim Alevi. I am against headscarf, which is nothing more than an Arabic tradition. Equal rights to women in the society. I am strongly in favor of secular state and separation of science and beliefs especially this is important in education. Practicing my religion in my mother langue to understand it better. Love everybody without making any discrimination. Love of nature. I am against all kind of abuse. In fact Alevis see whole word and all creatures as God’s work and respect all of them. This is my position in summary.
Artemidoros said:
My only hope is the Greek Cypriots will vote against this monstrosity in a referendum. Otherwise it will be time to wave good bye to the whole of Cyprus.
FOR GOD'S SAKE DO NOT LET THE CYPRIOT NATIONAL GUARD BE DISBANDED. CYPRUS IS ONLY 40 MILES FROM TURKEY AND ALMOST 500 FROM CRETE. DO NOT GIVE INTERVENTION RIGHTS TO TURKEY.
Why do you think so? Why didn’t Turkey get the whole Cyprus so far if she had an intention like this?
Would you please tell us why Turkey invaded some part of the Cyprus? What was the reason? What do you think if Turkey would not intervene the situation in 1974?
These are the words of Ataturk, for those who say Ataturk was a fascist.
“Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives .... You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehemets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours ... you, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries, wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.”<br>ATATURK
www.nzhistory.net.nz/Gallery/Anzac/AtaMem
