Dravidians...what were they?

[RUDRA]

praetorian said:

Fascinating...and what would those protomediterranids look in their unmixed type?
Are there pure dravidians in existence? By pure I mean phenotipicaly...without australoid features...

To me they looked some-what Caucasoid(yet still different). It's hard to find what they would have been like (phonotypical) in their purer forms. India has a wide spectrum of looks, but still there is a type of look that’s found everywhere in this country. From Pakistan to Sri-lanka, even though it’s rare or mixed in most places.

The best and purest examples of anicent dravidians I think, would be the Todas of south india.

But here some north indian Uttar pradesh(caste) populations who are mostly dravidian(Gracilindid) in looks:

[RUDRA]

agrippa said:

Todas are usually considered being pred. Nordindid with many fully typical individuals like this one.

Well I disagree, because this Nordindid look, pretty much ends in Rajasthan, and doesn't come this far south. While their good Possibility they(todas) came from north india(himachal or nepal), and they do have an important Nordindid influence. They are as fierce said Predominantly Gracilindid. They are so far, the best examples of what ancient dravidains would have looked like, even if they have a minor Veddoid and Nordindid mix in them.

[RUDRA]

az said:

they are kannadigas; kannadiga is a south indian dravidian language. karnataka state.

These people are not kannadigas, they are kodavas or kodagu(croogi). In the State of karnataka there are four main ethnic groups. The largest of them are kannadiga people, for the state is named after them.

The Other three are the kodavas, Goan Konkanis living in west coast, and the Tuluvas(tulu) peoples.

Here's 3 female bollywood tulus for you fierce ;D :


And just to be fair, lets not forget sunil shetty

[RUDRA]

az said:

In terms of long headedness - well there are many dolicocephallic people in the south normally western coastal ones - like in dolicocephallic keralites while in the more western area of tamil nadu and andhra dravidid indid dolicocephally is more dispersed; still its inaccurate to associate this trait with a higher social status in the south.

Keralites and other western coastal indians(kodava, tulu, Goans) are not dolicocephallic, they are the complete opposite. I am not sure where you getting this from , but you should really start renting malayalee movies to see what I am getting at.

The highest dolicocephallic region in south india is in eastern tamil and andhra Pradesh areas. Keralites are a brachio-mesocephallic people, while the kodava are the most round-headed people in all of south india.

[RUDRA]

praetorian said:

Couldn´t the Dravidians be carriers of the M haplogroup? Since it is doesn´t represent any race...in fact..it is present in a number of very different peoples...
dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/04/mtdna-haplogroup-m-originated-in-asia.html

So a percentage of that could be Dravidian...

Because of the independent status of Mtdna U2i, and the highest findings of Y-chromosome L in Indian (plus its mysterious origins in the middle-east). Makes both of them ideal pair and Dravidian haplogroups of India. Ancient Dravidian come to India, settled in mostly Pakistan. Later they pushed deeper into India with the neolithic farming revolution.

Early Dravidians would have absorbed Mt haplotypes M
And Y-chromosome H along the way(their time spent in india), also an early form Y-chromosome J2 could have had some impact on early Dravidians too.

[RUDRA]

dastudah said:

Those todas you posted look like regular indians to me, not even the darker types either

If that type of indian looks "european" "europid" "caucasian" like all those terms you people use, then so are amerinds, all africans besides west-central, all middle east, etc

The most caucasian looking indians are found in north-western india(sorry for the graphic picture )



While dravidians(todas) are what I alwayed called anicent middle-eastern, or even proto-caucasian(if that term makes some people happy).
Toda women:

[RUDRA]

dastudah said:

Actually the northern tip goes farther to the north
Look at people in srinagar

And your point is? The some of pictures I posted comes from kashimir, if you didn't notice.
Read the conversion I had with Agrippa, before you go on typing.

[cocacola]

rudra said:

az said:

they are kannadigas; kannadiga is a south indian dravidian language. karnataka state.

These people are not kannadigas, they are kodavas or kodagu(croogi). In the State of karnataka there are four main ethnic groups. The largest of them are kannadiga people, for the state is named after them.

The Other three are the kodavas, Goan Konkanis living in west coast, and the Tuluvas(tulu) peoples.

Here's 3 female bollywood tulus for you fierce ;D :


And just to be fair, lets not forget sunil shetty

Coorgi people are distinct. Their population is small and they are different from the rest of the South Indians.

Some information about them:
"Some historians suggest that the Kodavas might have migrated into their present area in the Coorg district around the 3rd century A.D. The Yeravas, Kurubas, Male-Kudiyas and Holayas also are found in this area (Richter, 1987).

There are different theories about the origin of Kodavas. One view is that the Kodava culture resembles the culture of the ancient trading stock of Araba (Moeling 1855). Another view is that the Kodavas are descendants of Scythians (Connor 1870, Rice 1878). According to yet another view, the Kodavas belong to the Indo-Scythian race. Kodavas have no resemblance to any other people group of South India since their average cephalic index is 80.6 and the nasal index is 65.2. This may prove that the Kodavas are the descendants of the Brachycephalic stock who entered into the Indus Valley during the Mohenjodaro period and migrated to the Coorg region (Hutton, as quoted in Balakrishnan 1976). These are all theories, and we do not have any definite clue or evidence to prefer one theory over another. Though Kodava language belongs to the Dravidian family, some have claimed that the Kodava people themselves may not be of Dravidian origin. If this theory or belief is accepted, then we need to explain how the Kodava people group has a language that clearly belongs to the Dravidian family of languages. We do notice that people groups could give up their language over a period of time and adopt another language as their own. Kodavas might have given up their language and shifted to a new language. Such a language shift is a common phenomenon throughout the world. In India, Khasis belong to the Mangoloid group physically, but their language belongs to the Austro-Asiatic group. The Gonds are a Dravidian tribe, but a section among them has shifted to the Indo-Aryan language, Chatti-gadhi. While the Bhils have been considered sometimes as belonging to the Dravidian family and sometimes belonging to the Munda stock, they speak an Indo-Aryan language called Bhili. These cases of the entire ethnic group switching to another language show that there is no inherent or necessary link between the language group and its ethnicity. It also clearly shows that no group can ever claim to be belonging to a pure race. In a sense, the entire Indian demography is one of racial admixture. It is only the language that may be used to distinguish one group from another.

Linguistically, Kodava shows some deviations from the rest of the Dravidian languages. To cite one example, Dravidian languages have 5 short and 5 long vowels. In addition to these vowels, Kodava has two more vowels, namely, /ï/ high central unrounded vowel and /ë/ mid central unrounded vowel which are also distinguished as short and long. (Balakrishnan, 1976).

These peculiarities and distinctness of Kodava had attracted the attention of the scholars even in the sixteenth century. However, they did not consider Kodava as an independent language. It was always considered as a dialect of Kannada, closer to Tulu (Ellis 1816), or closely related to Malayalam and Tamil (Moegling 1855). It was in early 20th century that the philologists and linguists recognized Kodava as an independent language.

Kodava/Coorgi is also the mother tongue of some other communities such as Airi, Male-Kudiya, Meda, Kembatti, Kapal, Maringi, Heggade, Kavadi, Kolla, Thatta, Koleya, Koyava, Banna, Golla, Kanya, Ganiga, and Malaya, living mainly in the Coorg region. Many of these communities have migrated into Coorg from Malabar during the period of Haleri Dynasty. There is no research done so far to find out the variation in Kodava language in terms of these communities."
www.languageinindia.com/oct2001/kodavarajyashree.html

[RUDRA]

dastudah said:

rudra said:

And your point is? The some of pictures I posted comes from kashimir, if you didn't notice.
Read the conversion I had with Agrippa, before you go on typing.

Why are you turning this into an arguement? It's a discussion not a quarrel

Anyway why would northwest be lighterr? Far north goes into afghan area

I just hate people who try to misrepresent indian people and culture, you are one of them. Arn't you the one who claimed that north indians are half russian slavs in Ras and dodona. Plus you toke examples of indians, claiming that some looked european and other looked like arabs. And now you have change of heart and believe indians arn't caucasian.

Let me make it easy for you to understand. India is made up of different peoples, who all came different time periods.

First came the UP indians(australoid looking):
gondwana.vm.bytemark.co.uk/ggimages/SI/TribalYouth1.jpg


Then came the dravidians(almost native american looking) in.yimg.com/i/in/mov/cinesouth/20031003/134660100.jpg


And finally the aryans or nordindid(middle-eastern looking for most people)



Also Add a few asians in the north-east:
And there you have it, The people of India

[RUDRA]

dastudah said:

My ass man. First of all "dravidians "almost native american looking" are you f*cking insane?

Yep I showed you pictures of pure dravidian toda types
and they don't look like europeans, native autralians, asians, africans, or even modern middle-eastern. Hell they don't even look like modern native americans either. I was just saying they are almost native american looking, not that they are native americans gentically. what's your problem anyways

Then you say "And finally the aryans or nordindid(middle-eastern looking for most people)"
Middle eastern looking my f*ckin ass man!!

To your average american, yes they do look Middle eastern. They don't look like slavs(russians/poles) as you said, so this makes you an f*ckin drunken idiot.

Btw this guy looks f*ckin north indian or paki, this aint "dravidian" in.yimg.com/i/in/mov/cinesouth/20031003/134660100.jpg

This is the most funniest, because this guy is a south indian tamil/telegu actor. You have no idea what you are talking about, face it.

[cocacola]

rudra, ignore dastagu. what do you think about the origins of coorgis?

[cocacola]

i agree this guy isnt the greatest example for a dravidian:

[RUDRA]

cocacola said:

rudra, ignore dastagu. what do you think about the origins of coorgis?

I got this of a website(www.coorgs.com/origin.htm), may not be the best information, but there's no genetic info on this little known peoples in India yet. All we have is speculations, they look like they're mixed with dravidian (Gracilindid and veddiod). They aren't a homogengeous looking people, but they are the most round-headed(brachycephalic), stocky build and hairy peoples in south india. They seem to have influenced Goans, Keralites, and tulus to some extend. They could be have been foreign men who toke south indians brides and settle down in india. They seem Armenoid influenced, and new group of people to the area.

It is believed that this band of soldiers in the jungles of Coorg, not having women to marry, raided the areas surrounding Coorg for women folk to carry away and settle in Coorg with.

Experts probably look at physical features like the distinctive beak nose, high cheek bones, usually fair skin colour, height and robustness.(Armenoid?)
And at our temperament – mostly quick tempered, loyal and brave. Our dress which is easily ‘middle-east’. Our customs which are so martial and barely Hindu. Our dialect which is a mixture of other South Indian dialects and languages. And even the foreign language influences in our dialect.

In 2001, Assyrian- looking terracotta statues were uncovered in the grounds of an old ‘Botay Iyapa’ temple, near Kargunda on the road from Madikeri to Talakaveri. (He is the God the Kodavas of old appeased, before they went out to hunt. Which was
probably very often, considering hunting was the only source of meat).





If they are from iraq, then they could have traveled thourgh southern pakistian reaching india in the process. Or they could have came by ships, and mixed with the local women. If the second senario is correct, then it wouldn't be the first or last time, because the Cochin Jews, moores of lanka, mappilas and Knanayas all have middle-east origin, and look some what Armenoid.

[RUDRA]

The major caucasian influence in india is nordindid(aryan), but other neighbouring middle-easterners could have given a slight impact nonetheless.

This maybe Iranian(Irano-Afghan) influenced north indians(nordindid):
parsi
kalash

And this could be Armenoid influenced dravidians:

[RUDRA]

cocacola said:

i agree this guy isnt the greatest example for a dravidian:
in.yimg.com/i/in/mov/cinesouth/20031003/134660100.jpg

I only picked this south indian actor, because I though he looked and fit very well into the toda and dravidian pictures I posted above. Maybe he's not the best example, I don't know. but I know one thing though, he would be seen as a dark-skinned pakistiani, if he was ever born in that country(he is pretty dark in real life, a dark coffee color).
Here more pictures of todas to drive home the idea:



This Last one is a good picture, because it show two average indian couple(left), two whites(right) and a toda in-between(I hope these pictures help people understand the point) Indian people mostly origined from dravidians(even though most indian people, like the couple aren't purely dravidian):