|
Post by nockwasright on Sept 20, 2005 10:51:16 GMT -5
and also: "They have a flat nose, protruding cheekbones, eyes set deep in their orbits as in a cave" Sidonio Apollinare
and again Ammianus Marcellinus likely from the same excerpt: they are "...strangely ugly and bent"
|
|
|
Post by oubit on Sept 20, 2005 11:36:36 GMT -5
obviously the inspiration for this: “Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the ’human’ form as seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, copyrighted 2000, page 274)
|
|
|
Post by Crimson Guard on Sept 20, 2005 13:04:22 GMT -5
yes...Tolkien seemed to have partly based his version of Orc characters on the Huns and Mongols..as was even popular before tolkien when Wagner used German folktales/legends of Attila the Hun and his army in his "Rings" work aswel.
In actuallity and Orc is taken directly from Roman Mythology and later Medival Italian Storytelling. Orca and Orco's appeared in Italian Tales way before Tolkien.Orcus was another name for Pluto and his Underworld kingdom.
For example,In Orlando Furioso, XVII: 29. This "land orc" is a blind giant with a long nose and tusks jutting out like a savage swine. The land orc is a cannibal who holds king Norandino and his men captive in a cave.
Orco in italian means- an ogre, a humanoid creature.
|
|
|
Post by Melnorme on Sept 20, 2005 13:05:48 GMT -5
Tolkien's world had Huns and Mongols that were human : Easterlings, men of Khand, Variags, Wainriders, etc.
|
|
|
Post by Crimson Guard on Sept 20, 2005 13:07:53 GMT -5
partly,but mainly they where the Saracens and Turks.
|
|
|
Post by Evil Aryan on Sept 21, 2005 2:13:52 GMT -5
The Huns (Hunnu/Xiongnu) in a cemetary in what is now northern Mongolia were already "Turanid", 11% of mtDNA were found to be West Eurasian. www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v73n2/35013/35013.htmlThe Huns were indeed most likely the ancestors of the Turks. There is linguistic, archaeological, and some mtDNA sub-lineages to support this, so the Turks were already "Turanid" upon formation. I doubt that having only 11% Caucasoid mtDNA,would make a people "Turanid".Personaly I prefer the Turanid term to describe the Hybrid Mongoloid-Caucasoid type,like Niazof,the Turkmen president.I mean that a person must have 40-60% Mongoloid genetic make up and 60-40% Caucasoid component to became Turanid. Therefore the early Huns (Xiong nu tribe) must have been Mongoloid-looking with weak Caucasoid admixture.This is consistent with the Roman historians' describtions of the Attila's hord.
|
|
|
Post by nockwasright on Sept 21, 2005 3:25:42 GMT -5
Well, if you finally add up all the descriptions of Huns (and personal of Attila) made by ancient writers it comes out they where short, swarthy, brachimorph (large and plump) with bow legs, deep set eyes, flat nose, protruding cheekbones, few facial hair.
As everything is relative, we can assume that they were such things in reference to the Eruopeans who described them (so they were swarthyer, shorter ...).
Thus it's hard to tell if they looked Mongoloid or just Turanid (as Turanid would too have deeper set eyes, swarthier complexion .. etc). The only trait that looks Mongoloid and not possibily Turanid to me is the flat nose.
|
|
|
Post by oubit on Sept 21, 2005 8:36:25 GMT -5
Tolkien's world had Huns and Mongols that were human : Easterlings, men of Khand, Variags, Wainriders, etc. I think the Easterlings rather represent Indoeuropean warriors like Scythians and Alans, while the rolemodel for the most evil side in LotR has many similarities with the major enemy of Europe since the Christian era, so basically the Turks (which is even almost the same word as "Orcs" and "Uruks"). That's why the ring inscription sounds like a Fantasy-version of Turkish.
|
|
|
Post by tictactoe on Sept 21, 2005 10:20:24 GMT -5
The Huns (Hunnu/Xiongnu) in a cemetary in what is now northern Mongolia were already "Turanid", 11% of mtDNA were found to be West Eurasian. www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v73n2/35013/35013.htmlThe Huns were indeed most likely the ancestors of the Turks. There is linguistic, archaeological, and some mtDNA sub-lineages to support this, so the Turks were already "Turanid" upon formation. I doubt that having only 11% Caucasoid mtDNA,would make a people "Turanid".Personaly I prefer the Turanid term to describe the Hybrid Mongoloid-Caucasoid type,like Niazof,the Turkmen president.I mean that a person must have 40-60% Mongoloid genetic make up and 60-40% Caucasoid component to became Turanid. Therefore the early Huns (Xiong nu tribe) must have been Mongoloid-looking with weak Caucasoid admixture.This is consistent with the Roman historians' describtions of the Attila's hord. I fully agree. The above mentioned study dos not say anything about the fact that the Xiongnu absorbed older populations of western mongoli, hangai region, xinjiang, gansu and probably transbaikali and ordos of various europoid types. In later stages of history tribes of mostly europid features existed even under the higher ranked tribes. However no matter how strong the admixture was it doesn't make europoids out of the original Xiongnu. The Xiongnus origins are clearly mongoloid. Nevertheless nothing we say about Xiongnu says anything about the Europen Huns. A relationship is largely rejected by modern scientist with the exception of hungarian and turkish nationalists and racists. In fact we don't know very much about the Huns origins. It was a tribal confederation and therefore anythinge else than homogenous. Their composition may have included Iranian, Uralic, Germanic, Turkish and whatever tribes. Laszlo Bona and the Szeged anthropologists assume a mongoloid feature (apparently of long headed high cheek bone type and therfore different to the rather broad headed later Avar skulls) between 20% to 25% under the empirical Huns of Pannonia. Note that the skulls of the Germanic Gepids of Pannonia also showing that feature mix, and the Iranian speaking Alans also to an certain degree. Therefore its hard to distuingish between a Gepid or Hun skull.
|
|
|
Post by human2 on Sept 21, 2005 10:32:08 GMT -5
^^ "Caucasoid" morphology only shows up much later in northern Mongolia. It's in the fossil record as well as mtDNA tests done. I'm tired of citing sources as people like you never bother to read. Anyone who doubts what I say, go ask Dienekes.
|
|
|
Post by Mike the Jedi on Sept 21, 2005 10:38:00 GMT -5
Since when is red-orange "shit-colored"?
|
|
|
Post by human2 on Sept 21, 2005 10:40:40 GMT -5
Since when is red-orange "shit-colored"? give a racist chinaman a break ..
|
|
|
Post by Platypus on Sept 21, 2005 12:29:20 GMT -5
As always with Tolkien many elements seem to coincide
-Western Europeans gave always a 'mithical' and/or 'Monstrous' aura to all Eastern nomadic peoples (Scyths,Alans,Avars,Magyars or Mongols)
-Western europeans have always been terrified by the invading 'eastern' swarms (add the Soviets to the list)
-The British called the Germans 'Huns' during the World Wars. Tolkien fought in the 1WW. Turkey was allied to the central powers.
-The base of both Huns and Avars was former Pannonia, a flat area surrounded by the Carpathians. Reminds of a reversed Mordor. The Turks conquered Constantinople (Minas Tirith). Like Minas tirith, and like keltic strongholds also the Avar capital was a fortress with a series of circular eartworks
-Similarities between the latin 'Orcus' -Turk,- Ugric Hungar> Hun...
|
|
|
Post by koroglu on Sept 23, 2005 7:23:54 GMT -5
By all accounts Attila was one ulgy SOB...put it this way he certainly did not look the least bit like Gerard Butler,LOL!
|
|
|
Post by koroglu on Sept 25, 2005 1:50:30 GMT -5
|
|