East-Baltids+Alpins+Neo-Danubians

[Liquid Len]

agrippa said:

If we are about that, where do Danubians fit in?
Primitive ancestors of Pontids which evolved on? Just a different breed or with a fluent border, development from more protomorphic Danubians to Pontids...

I thought the Pontids were on the whole more similar to the Atlanto-Meds. And there had been Atlanto-Med people around in the Danubian area right from the beginning of the Neolithic period (possibly earlier, I don't know). The Danubians were much smaller, more gracile and infantile. And their numbers rose in the course of the Neolithic, whereas they'd been still relatively in the minority earlier on. So I would say no, they didn't develop into Pontids.

platypus said:

I would like to know if the Danubians made their way to Europe, through the Bosphorus or through the Ukrainian plains.

The Neolithic culture bearers came definitely from the south via Greece and from Anatolia. But they were physically a bit different from the typical Danubian type. The earliest Neolithic people of the Balkans were most similar to Central Anatolians such as from Catal Hüyük, according to a relatively recent paper. I made a thread about that: dodona.proboards35.com/index.cgi?board=raceclass&action=display&thread=1120500251
According to the Racial calculator the people from Catal Hüyük were Mediterranoid too, but unfortunately the result might be a bit biased, because I replaced some missing data by measurements from my own head, which is Mediterranoid according to cosine similarity... According to classical typology most of them were plainly robust Atlanto-Meds. I could search and post some measurements from the later Danubian Neolithic cultures for comparison, if you're interested. I'd say they show that the Danubian type is something that came up in the Danubian cultures, i.e. the tradition of the Danubian area. The question remains if they developped out of local mesolithic types or of the immigrated farmers, both seems atm possible to my knowledge.

[OdinofOssetia]

xcalator1 said:

Take a chill pill, dude. I couldn't care less one way or another if Danubians exist or not. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate on behalf of those who use Coon's system.

Then I guess I should play the "devil's advocate" on behalf of those who point out that ancient Macedonians were not Greeks.

[Mike the Jedi]

odinofossetia said:

Then I guess I should play the "devil's advocate" on behalf of those who point out that ancient Macedonians were not Greeks.

[/b][/quote]

The Macedonians were like the West Virginians of Greece. Hillbilly offshoots who happened to catch a lucky break with Alexander. I really could care less about claiming them.

[Agrippa]

The Macedonians were more than that, and you should never forget Philipp, Alexanders father and one fact many might not know, that Macedonia owned at Philipps time for the first time big and good silver mines, which made the further developments in the military structure possible. Before that, they were quite poor, tough warriors indeed, but not well equipped nor disciplined, escept for their aristocratic cavalry. Similar to the Thessalians one could argue...
They still lived more like the classical Indoeuropeans, more mobile and less stable...

[Mike the Jedi]

Everything that was good about Macedonia was already Greek, is all I'm saying. Trying to separate the two as separate entities because the Macedonians may have had some Thracian affinities is silly.

[Crimson Guard]

Macedon=Dorian Greek with some Thracian element..Their probably more Italian today after Rome crushed them utterly. ;D

[Liquid Len]

Tavastid man:

Savolaxid woman:


I found these drawings of the two East Baltid subtypes useful because they're characteristic and yet free of the usual western clichés (just compare the Tavastid man with this Lithuanian football player).

[Holger]

waldm said:

Tavastid man:

Savolaxid woman:


I found these drawings of the two East Baltid subtypes useful because they're characteristic and yet free of the usual western clichés (just compare the Tavastid man with this Lithuanian football player).

Those images are not ment to be any examples of East-Baltid subtypes. They are from the publication Suomi, Maa, kansa ja valtakunta. And used to depict mainly people from various geographical areas of Finland, the images are named "man from Tavastland" "woman from Savolax". The article they were also incorporated with was the studies of Niilo Pesonen, which questioned the validity of the entire East Baltid type and contradicted the views expressed by the likes of Coon and Lundman, who's less extensive work is often quoted instead of Pesonen's thural studies.

Here's a football team from the heart of Savolax
kups.ip-finland.com/kuvat/kups2004_iso1024.jpg

[Liquid Len]

@ Holger

Thanks for the info. So are they not meant to be typical for their region?


Just two further remarks:

A certain anthropological type doesn't have to be overwhelmingly represented in a certain population because there are often other types present everywhere and lots of mixtures. A type is therefore only the most extreme collection of some tendencies who are present in a given area. Hence a type isn't the same as the average.

Secondly, football teams are rarely representative of the average population.

[Liquid Len]

The assumed centre of gravity of the East Baltic type lies around Lake Ladogan; it would therefore be of great relevancy to see how the average population there can be characterized.
If Pesonen has written something about that it would be of interest here.

[Liquid Len]

Another important question would be whether Pesonen managed to discern any other type that couldn't be explained as a mixture between known types, in particular with Nordid, Lapponoid and East Baltic.

[Ilmatar]

waldm said:

The assumed centre of gravity of the East Baltic type lies around Lake Ladogan; it would therefore be of great relevancy to see how the average population there can be characterized.
If Pesonen has written something about that it would be of interest here.

The problem would be that the average population found around the Western and Southern shores of Lake Ladogan wouldn't look anything like the average population found there when these anthropological texts were written. When Finland lost the area to the Soviet Union in WWII the entire Finnish population of the area left. If I remember correctly, the current "Ladogans" would be mainly ethnic Russians, Bielorussians and Ukrainians.

Then again, even the "ancient" inhabitants of the zone didn't start to settle down there before the 12th century. There were various waves of settlements from different directions, so the origins population there actually was quite mixed.

[Liquid Len]

cheeks said:

The problem would be that the average population found around the Western and Southern shores of Lake Ladogan wouldn't look anything like the average population found there when these anthropological texts were written. When Finland lost the area to the Soviet Union in WWII the entire Finnish population of the area left. If I remember correctly, the current "Ladogans" would be mainly ethnic Russians, Bielorussians and Ukrainians.

I see. Well that certainly doesn't make it easier.

Anyway - I'll start a second try to illustrate Lundman's two subtypes:

Tavastid




Savolaxid



It's decisive to make clear wich terminology we're actually discussing - the German/Lundman's one or Coon's. I noticed that in the former the definition of East Baltic/Osteuropid comes very close to what Coon called Ladogan. We'd just have to exclude the obvious Mongoloid mixes and the very dark haired specimens. An old German pic:



And the two Ladogan blends in Coon's system (East Baltic and Neo-Danubian) would be included as more or less East Baltic or East Baltic mixed (German sense), depending on the proportion of Ladogan being visible.

These Ladogan people here are almost perfect examples of the German/Swedish meaning of East Baltic, the second is only too dark haired:




IMO not every blend - even if stabilised - needs an own name, and it's much easier to explain the difference between East Baltic and Alpine if we simply stress the Ladogan features in the former.

Therefore Mika Häkkinen is a good example too, although many here think he's too Ladogan:

[Holger]

waldm said:

[I see. Well that certainly doesn't make it easier.

Anyway - I'll start a second try to illustrate Lundman's two subtypes:

That image is distorted, and if that is who I think it is Sami Hyypiä is not in any way an example of Baltid. The man is so obviously predominantly Nordid with possible slight Dinaroid mixture.

[Liquid Len]

If he really is the distortion would be remarkable.
I checked the numbers, he's got No. 4, so it really might be Hyypiä, (the pic's already a bit old from 2002/early 03).