Origin of Turanids

[greatness]

Does anyone have any info on the origins of the Turanid ppls. Obviously a Mongoloid/Caucasiod mix.

The word Turan emerged from Ferdowsi's Shahnameh, in which he terms the enemies of Iran, from beyond the Oxus river Turanians.

There are two theories as to why. One states that he thought of them as the completely the opposite of Iranians, thus <b>TU</b>ranian. But some believe the <b>TUR</b> was derived from Turk. Thus some propose that Turanian is a mixture of Iranian and some Turkic, or more likely Uralic group.

[Agrippa]

Turanids are Europids in the classic European terminology - in fact a Taurid/Dinaroid type = Pamirid. This type was in the majority under the farmers of the Turan, the North was partly Cromagnid and Nordid too, the South mostly Iranid (Orientalid).

Then came the major Mongolid (mostly Tungid) invasions (Turks, Mongols etc.) and brought the Mongolid element to Central Asia, they mixed with Cromagnids/Palaeueropids in the North, Pamirids in the Centre and East and Iranids in the South, this mixed Mongolid-Europid type is called Aralid or by some just "Turanid", but this is no real racial type, but more similar to American mulattoes.

The Pamirids, the major Europid element in the Aralids, this Taurid type, might be the result of brachycephalisation of Iranid and Cromagnid types of Central Asia - the typical Pamirids are the Tajiks.

[Educate Me]

so, these turanids are like central asia mestizos?

[Mike the Jedi]

Yep.

[ohes]

agrippa said:

Turanids are Europids in the classic European terminology - in fact a Taurid/Dinaroid type = Pamirid. This type was in the majority under the farmers of the Turan, the North was partly Cromagnid and Nordid too, the South mostly Iranid (Orientalid).

Then came the major Mongolid (mostly Tungid) invasions (Turks, Mongols etc.) and brought the Mongolid element to Central Asia, they mixed with Cromagnids/Palaeueropids in the North, Pamirids in the Centre and East and Iranids in the South, this mixed Mongolid-Europid type is called Aralid or by some just "Turanid", but this is no real racial type, but more similar to American mulattoes.

The Pamirids, the major Europid element in the Aralids, this Taurid type, might be the result of brachycephalisation of Iranid and Cromagnid types of Central Asia - the typical Pamirids are the Tajiks.

You got it all wrong, Turks were always the dominant group in Central Asia, look at Gokturks, they were founded centuries before this Turan term is invented. and it doesn't matter if Turan is an Iranian word or what Firdevsi meant by it. This word found its true use among the Turkish nationalists of the 19th century, i.e

"Home is neither Turkey for Turks nor Turkistan,
it is a great and perpetual country, Turan" by Ziya Gokalp.

Therefore it was used to denote all the lands that Turkish people live, and that is what it means now.

[henerte]

Therefore it was used to denote all the lands that Turkish people live, and it is what it means now.

Does Turan[/i] include Germany too?

[ohes]

Of course not, there is not an exact definition of the boundaries of Turan but basically we can think it as all the independent and autonomous Turk republics in the world.

Also, the following source is one fof the best sites in English giving information about the Turkish history:

www.uglychinese.org/uygur.htm

Needless to say, the best accounts of central Asian history can be found from the Chinese or Turkish sources. The conventional Western sources have many mistakes and very superficial, and unfortunately they are mostly assumed without questioning in most circles like here.

Another example, both Indians and Turks know that Babur empire was a Turkish empire, it is taught this way in India. However, since at those times "Mogol" was a term used as some kind of royalty, they were also called Mughals. Now, English thought Mughal=Mongol Empire and almost all western sources describe it as Indian-Mongol Empire which is totally wrong.

[Agrippa]

"The conventional Western sources have many mistakes and very superficial, and unfortunately they are mostly assumed without questioning in most circles like here."

Haha, that one is good! They are no stabilised mixture anyway, its just Tungid with Pamirid, Iranid and Cromagnid thrown in, nothing more. It depends on the exact region how long Mongolids lived there, but the main area of the Aralid mix is Kasachsthan, and this region was Europid in the past. Turanids are Europid and Mongolids came later producing Aralid mixed people - various degrees, different Europid part as I said (Central-East Pamirid, South Iranid, North Cromagnid).

they were founded centuries before this Turan term is invented.

One century more or less doesnt change the fact who was there first and Europids were indigenous to the region and just later assimilated and upmixed, mainly because Mongolid groups (Turks and Mongols) took over the horse and steppe war.

so, these turanids are like central asia mestizos?

Yes. Thats one of the reasons why they can look so different, the mixture is not stabilised and not always the same (some just Tungid, others Tungid with admixture etc.) in the region. Kasachs are mostly Mongolid/Tungid, Uzbeks are mixed and partly even more Europid, Tajiks are mostly Europid (but with admixture too, especially in the distant areas) - real Turandi/Pamirid.

Tajiks:


Mixed Uzbeks:




Almost fully Tungid Kasachs:

[ohes]

I can expand this later since I don't have much time now, but you continue to argue without much knowledge about Turkish history. Earliest archeolgical accounts of Turkish settlements were found as early as 4000 BC in Central Asia, also Chuvashs are living examples of that, they were living where they are now (in the Ural region) thousands of years ago.

You are also wrong in your other argument. It is proven that Ancient Turks were not looking much different than Oguz Turks today. I don't want to classify as Europoid or anything, but it was closer to Caucasoid with some Mongoloid features in it. Now, around the 13th century the thing called Turk-Mongolian synthesis occurred in central Asia, most of the Mongolians have melted in Turkish populations (Cengiz Han's army was like 75% Turk anyway ) and since Mongoloid genes are dominant, although the number of Mongols were low, the Turks of central Asia have more of a Mongoloid look.

Also, I guess you think the little information you get from some sites like wikipedia are totally correct since you are laughing. Then, another example, according to wikipedia Timur was a "Mongol" warrior ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur ), though if you knew something about him, you would know that he was actually a poet and in those poems it was evident that he was totally a Turkish nationalist, an ideology that was unheard of from other governors of same era. It is also known trhat when he conquered Persia, he visited the tomb of the aforementioned Firdevsi and said "Did you see the power of the Turk?", since in his book Firdevsi was actually badmouthing the Turks. Also, he never did claim to be Mongol as it is said in that article, he never used the term Han due to that, instead used Gurgen.

See, there are many mistakes in the sources ( I assume) that you base your ideas on. I do not want to say all Western accounts are junk, but surely you have to look at more in-depth sources than those internet resources. For example, this book about Timur:

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/2213027420/qid=1123679614/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl14/104-5128875-9421563?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Agrippa]

Masud was a Tajik but no Pamirid, because Pamirids are brachycephalic and Taurid, he was rather Iranid. Pamirids could be considered being brachycephalised Iranids, thats true, but its true for other Taurid/Armenid variants either. Anyway, the Pamirid type was proven in Tajiks in various studies by Eickstedt/Schwidetzky and later Russian/German anthropologists.

breakingnews.morris.com/terrorism/photogalleries/world/photo11.jpg

They are pred. Pamirid. Whats important is that the feature combination is pred. Taurid (with Alpinoid tendencies) in every case mostly brachycephalic but rather meso-leptoprosopic with small measurements. I brought the statistics on Stirpes and Skadi.
forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?p=41584#post41584

You can see that in the North Taurid-Alpinoid types dominate as Europid element, with an East-West gradient with lowest Europid admixture in Kasachstan and a North-South gradient with more Iranid in the South, Pamirid (Dinaroalpinid) in the North.

Turaniden-Studien
from Ilse Schwidetzky
Akademie der Wissenschaften und Literatur 1950

The more Europid form is best represented by Tajiks (= Pamirid) whereas the heavily mixed forms are Aralids, quite common under Uzbeks and the predominantely Mongolid groups of Central Asia represent the Mongolid element, the Tungid type.

So Turanids are in this scheme an Europid type (Pamirid - Dinaroalpinoid morphology) which is known as Aralid in a mixed form with Tungid.

In the South of Central Asia (Turkmens) the Turanid element becomes rare and is substituted by a dolichocephalic Europid type, the Orientalids (Iranid).

[Educate Me]

I always thought the original inhabitants of the central asia cities like Samarkand and Bukhara were persians, before the turks invaded and mixed with them.
And that the tajiks are the descendants of those original persian inhabitants.

[Agrippa]

ienjoylurking said:

I always thought the original inhabitants of the central asia cities like Samarkand and Bukhara were persians, before the turks invaded and mixed with them.
And that the tajiks are the descendants of those original persian inhabitants.

It depends on the exact region, further in the East admixture happened earlier, further in the West later and the Europid nomads in the West (Kasachstan) were replaced. The Samarkand region was mostly inhabited by Pamirids - and still they are an important element.





www.hunmagyar.org/ethno.html

[Agrippa]

No such thing as a "Pamirid".

Are you born to be ignorant? We speak of racial types and this type is proven - READ THE STATISTIC!

Its very nice you do that, because in many other cases Eickstedt/Schwidetzky didnt published every statistic in eheir main works, but in this case, they had a complete study going on and compared it with others - out of that came the Turaniden studies, whether you call them Pamirid or Turanid is irrelevant, but whats important is, they are Europid and of Taurid specialisation.

As I said:
They are pred. Pamirid. Whats important is that the feature combination is pred. Taurid (with Alpinoid tendencies) in every case mostly brachycephalic but rather meso-leptoprosopic with small measurements.

Pamirids are no exception from the rule that Taurid specialisation occurs mostly in mountainous regions, whereas the flat land in the South ist mostly Iranid, as I stated.

Just play on the ignorant nagger...

[greatness]

Pamirid is, as Agrippa mentioned, a brachycephalized Iranid group. While they share in various traits, their head form is obviously different from that of the main cluster of Iranids, thus Pamirid.

I think that southern central asia, particularly western Afghanistan and southern Turkmen country was Persian at first, and still shows this in the Iranid predominance in the region. Languages like Sogdian and Khwarazimi are Iranian languages. However many of these groups have been subjected to the the cultures of their Turk and Mongol invaders. For example the Hazara, coming from the Persian word for, 1000, are descended from about 1000 soldiers of Genghis Khan who settled in Afghanistan. From historical texts, Turanids, historically inhabited lands beyond the Oxus river.

Also Ferdowsi never bad-mouthed the Turks, he portrayed all the characters humanly, even his Persian characters screwed up royally. And Ferdowsi mentioned the Turks and Turanids differently. The Turanids are descended from Tur, a Persian, who settled in a region to the north and east, which leads me to believe that the historical Turanid are a mixture of Mongoloid turks and Iranids. Nowadays Turanid has been hijacked by Turkish ntnlists who use it as a point of unity.

[ohes]

If it was not about Turkish nationalists nobody would be talking about Turan. It is not important what Firdevsi wrote, (and certainly no Turan race different from Turks existed) Turan means land of the Turk now.

Huns:






Gokturks: