|
Post by Caipira on Dec 8, 2003 1:20:18 GMT -5
"Your mother doesen't looks like a dutch... noway... She looks like a souther european. You father can pass by a pure european, too... I don't think his nose is a evidence of negroid admixture. But you don't look like a pure european, man... Sorry... i'm not saying this for any racist cause... i'm not racist... I would say you have a little amerindian admixture even without knowing your origins as you told... " (HerrX)
"I for one tend to be skeptical of photos. That said, I looked at the pics and the posts and I see that things have gotten heated. Some say that Caipira looks Amerindian, and Caipira has taken offense at that. He has mentioned having a bit of Negroid ancestry. Judging from the photos, I would agree that Caipira has some European family members and a substantial European heritage. Southern Europeans can vary in appearance and in Europe "pseudo-foreign" appearances (for lack of a better term) are visible. That said, I don't think a person is far off by stating that Caipira looks like he may have Amerindian admixture. And I do not see why he should take offense at that.
Now, it could be that the majority of people here are wrong, for a majority position is not necessarily right. What I suggest to Caipira if he is so concerned about his racial makeup is to invest a bit of money on an autosomal DNA test that will sort out his ancestry into racial groups. Everything else is just conjecture."(galvez)
"I agree with you, galvez...
And, Caipira, don't get as a offense if someone tell you you look like amerindian. In my case, is just my opinion. It doesen't means the truth... Your skin can be darker because of the sun, for example... " (HerrX)
Men, I'm not offended with commets about my sligh Amerindian look!! I sayd that once a Japanese-Brazilian girl asked me if I have a little bit of Asian ancestry. My eyes are smaller than European avarege and quite unusual, but that is not "an obviusly" Amerindian feature. I know that I haven't a single Amerindian dropp blood in me. But I wouldn't be asheme of this! A lot of whites have, in fact, proud of their sligh Amerindian ancestry in Brazil... It's strange because they don't like Amerindians, in Mato Grosso there are a lot of trouble between Amerindians and Whites, but every White men likes having a native great great greandma...
But as I sayd, I don't have Amerindian ancestry. Not even close. I have south European ancestry and an African great great great great grandmather...
"there are not that many White Supremacist groups in Brazil and all types of idiots can post in the internet, it would be very hypocrital to accept Italians and to reject Portugueses." (Necromicom)
Yes, I agree with you...
"Orgulho Paulista is a terrible group, i been in their forum and they are all a bunch of immature idiots, and they are not White Nationalists, they are Stupid Separatists from São Paulo, many of them are not racist/racialist." (Necromicom)
I agree with you again... But yes, Orgulho Paulista is racialist...
Caipira !!
|
|
|
Post by herrx on Dec 8, 2003 1:22:06 GMT -5
About Clemenza, the actor's name is Richard S. Castellano. It's spanish. Not "pure italian" as you said. Maybe mexican... Do you speak about your father's origins as you speak about "Clemenza's" origin's? Be careful, guy.
|
|
|
Post by herrx on Dec 8, 2003 1:28:13 GMT -5
I believe you know your father origins... I said that about "Clemenza" only for you to pay more attention in saying about things you don't know. preserve your credibility.
|
|
|
Post by Caipira on Dec 8, 2003 1:29:14 GMT -5
I forgot to say that this post is to Great99:
"And I start to understand you is a liar."
No, I'm not... If you think I am, it's your problem. I don't need to prove anything to you...
"Since when germans are the base of classification to say who is european and who isn't? Futhermore, portugueses and turks don't look noway the same. You can't judge the whole by few examples "
Yes, Portugueses and Turks are not the same thing... But they CAN look like the very similar...
"You can't judge the whole by few examples "
You're doing this right now...
"Another of your liars."
No. There are Germanic/Eastern European majority cities in souther states from Brazil, like Blumenau or Joinville. In some of them, they even don't speak Portuguese. Do you think that you would be the same thing there as Bruno Von Otto Blumenau's descents ? Sure you wouldn't. Some racialists groups are just German. Face it. They're nordicists and they follow guys like Arthur Kemp or Anon. Andrew MacDonald, one of the biggest Brazilian nazi groups sayd once in an old forum about how Portuguese people are mixed. I don't agree with him, but the fact is that they use Portugal to represent "the end of a civilization caused by racial admixture"
"If not, so She is wearing a peruke I suppose."
No, pics taken by web cams can be like this... Colors can became a mass...
"Those new pics don't help you in nothing."
No ? I showed you my Catalunyan and Italian great grandparents and you simple think that they are a bunch of Indians ??
"It's not about the largue nose, because some europeans totally europeans show largue nose. Even so a european with wide nose never will look like your father."
You're proving my point: Races are politically and socially defined. NOTE: I'M NOT DENYING HUMAN'S RACES EXISTENCE. I'm just saying that they're not a strict biological statement, because we CHOOSE what phisical characteristcs would "make" a race... Why skin colour and not wight ?? I don't know... The tem "White" or "Caucasoid" had lots of meanings during race's history. Different anthros had different racial classifications. 3, 5, 7, 9... 100 !!! Boas talked about just two, for instance... Each claffication is so arbitrary than others...
The point is that human bones (and phenotipes in general) can be quite plastic. According the grat Brazilian biologist, Walter Neves (I know him from USP), who worked with Cavalli-Sforza, just in 60% of his skull's analysis it was possible a fina biogeographical classification. In the other 40%, just guessing games: "Hmmm... This man looks like an Europoid". It happens because for mostly characteristics, individual variations are much bigger than racial variations.
You looked to my dad and tought: "Hmmm... This man has a large nose ans a curly hair. Of course! African ancestry! It's quite obvius!" The problem is that European genes CAN produce people like my father. I'm sure about that, because my father is full European and looks like you've seen... Have you watched "The Godfather"? Well, there's a sicilian guy, "Clemenza"... He's 100% Italian, but he could pass by a Brazilian mulato. How? That "Soprano" serie showed at least 2 very different Italian types... No seriuous scientists would be sure about someone ancesty just looking at him... Specially with just a few pics, Lololol...
Face it, son... Cavalli-Sforza agrees with me... Walter Neves and 90% of my professors at USP agree with me too...
"You just have one Y-chromosome (probably european) and one mtDNA (probably negroid or amerindian)."
No... My mother's mother's mother was Catalunyan, so, my mtDNA isn't Negroid or Amerindian (there aren't "Negroid" mtDNAs, there is no "Negroid" classifications in the genetic area)
"By a scientific sense you can be 98% negroid, don't care how distant is your negroid ancestral."
Please, don't waste your precious time teaching genetics to me... I work with this... Not with human genetics, I workl with vegetals, but I know a bit about human genetics... I looked a little about your statments, and I saw a lot of things about mtDNA and Y chromossomes. These are just two genetic lines. THEY CAN'T REPRESENT THE GENOME. Polymorphisms are much better (blood genes, for instance, like ABO, Rh-, Duffy, Philadelfia...)
But a person like me, just with an African great great great great grandmother and the rest of my genealogical tree caming from Europe hardly would be 98% Negroid. Yes, it can happens, but it's very unusual. About 99% of cases it doesn't happens... I can see at at USP labs... Generally, when a person being European, or mostly European, he's DNA will be like that. Take a look:
Genetic Structure of Human Populations Noah A. Rosenberg,1* Jonathan K. Pritchard,2 James L. Weber,3 Howard M. Cann,4 Kenneth K. Kidd,5 Lev A. Zhivotovsky,6 Marcus W. Feldman7
...Thus, for many applications in epidemiology, as well as for assessing individual disease risks, self-reported population ancestry likely provides a suitable proxy for genetic ancestry. Self-reported ancestry can be obtained less intrusively than genetic ancestry, and if self-reported ancestry subdivides a genetic cluster into multiple groups, it may provide useful information about unknown environmental risk factors (23, 25).
Yes, I need to read real science and not just about divulgation magazines...
I could see that Dr. Rich would never give a profilatic statement based in someones appearence. He knows that even Europeans can look in different ways. So, he never goes by someones phenotipes, he uses the term "population structures" or "self reported descent". It's pretty obvius that you don't understand very much about this... But I need to work all days with genetics...
Caipira !!
|
|
|
Post by Caipira on Dec 8, 2003 1:32:36 GMT -5
HerrX, I know that German and Nordic are not the same thing.... But in some racialist groups from southern parts of Brazil, yes, it's.... They're wrong, but they think in that way...
Anyway, man... About Clemenza... Sorry, I'm wrong. I didn't remember the name of a dark Italian-American guy who is always acting in mafia's movies and he was at the Soprano's... He's Italian for sure... But I forgot his name and I used Constanza example...
Caipira !!
|
|
|
Post by Silveira on Dec 8, 2003 4:28:03 GMT -5
I think you are making a huge mountain out of a tiny molehill. The people you describe are a tiny and insignificant group of lunatics, I mean, what kind of Brazilian calls himself "Andrew McDonald"? They are unhappy and complexed with their condition as Brazilians and therefore scapegoat the Portuguese for the fact that their country is not majority nordic. I would say that the "biggest Brazilian Nazi groups" you describe have, in total a few dozen members, if that. This is quite pathetic in a country with 180 million inhabitants. Any idiot can go on the internet and claim he has a "big bad group of nazis". When the person in question is Brazilian these gesticulations become even more amusing and pathetic. If they don´t like Brazil and hate the Portuguese why don´t they just move somewhere more "aryan" where they will be happier?
Everyone in Blumenau, novo Hamburgo, Joinville, etc. speaks Portuguese. Some people also speak German, etc. as a second language and usually with some difficulty. The Brazilian state has forced all these communities to integrate over the last 5 or 6 decades and only amongst groups where there has been more recent emigration, such as with the Koreans, is the native language still strong.
All this being said, there is a negative stereotype of the Portuguese in Brazil, but this has its origin in the fact that most Portuguese immigrants until the 1960s were peasants with little formal education who owned small stores and bakeries. It has nothing to do with nordicism. In fact, if nordicist doctrines were the root of anti-Portuguese sentiment in Brazil there would also be anti-Italian sentiment. Anyway, the ruling elites of Brazil and most of the european-derived population are largely of mediterranean stock.
Some members of the Brazilian elite also express a dislike of the Portuguese but this is because they are basically "estrangeirados" and have an inferiority complex in relation to the US. Saying the Portuguese should have never colonized Brazil is exactly like saying Brazil should not exist, because Brazil was a creation of the Portuguese state.
|
|
|
Post by Necronomicom on Dec 8, 2003 6:00:23 GMT -5
All this being said, there is a negative stereotype of the Portuguese in Brazil, but this has its origin in the fact that most Portuguese immigrants until the 1960s were peasants with little formal education who owned small stores and bakeries. its a joke stereotype where the Portuguese is the butt of the joke, nothing serious, and many people who tell these jokes are part Portuguese. And I heard that in Portugual people also tell similar jokes where the Brazilian is the butt of the joke. anyway Portuguese do have a very funny accent. ;D Some members of the Brazilian elite also express a dislike of the Portuguese but this is because they are basically "estrangeirados" and have an inferiority complex in relation to the US. Saying the Portuguese should have never colonized Brazil is exactly like saying Brazil should not exist, because Brazil was a creation of the Portuguese state. nonsense, most of the Brazilian elite are part Portuguese as well. these little conflicts between different European groups in Brazil where never much serious, for example in São Paulo during the very early 20 century many members of the elite disliked the incoming Italian imigrants who were a bunch of semi-illiteraly rurar people, but that was because they were poor rurar people and usally elite people dislike poor people in every country.
|
|
|
Post by alex221166 on Dec 8, 2003 9:10:47 GMT -5
No, in Portugal we don't tell jokes about Brazilians. The only time we make fun of Brazilians is when the subject of Brazilians making fun of Portugal comes up. Then we go and have some coffee in the local cafe, and take a good look at the (brazilian) accent of the waiter and we smile.
As to the jokes Brazilians say about Portugal, let me tell you that over here no one finds them funny. We just find them completely ridiculous, particularly because they reflect the utter ignorance that the overwhelming majority of Brazilians have about Portugal. How can you make fun of someone you don't even know or make fun of a country you know literally NOTHING about?
As far as I am concerned, those jokes can only be explained by a pseudo-colonial sense of inferiority and by ungratefulness. I've noticed that some Americans have the similar (albeit more controlled) feeling towards England, and I've also noticed that there is a lot of anti-Spanish behaviour in Peru.
Please explain what you meant.
The truth is this:
a) Brazil is not in Europe and Portugal is
b) Brazilians are not Europeans, but the Portuguese are
c) Brazilians are for the most part, mixed race, and they resent that fact. The Portuguese are considered European by anyone with a brain.
d) Ignorant Brazilians that were bottle-fed with out-of-date anti-Portuguese propaganda, like to insult what they do not know (without having the slightest clue of just how much they owe to Portugal) because that makes them feel better about the crappy worthless lives that they have
Overall, that's it: most Brazilians have nothing, so they project everything that they hate in their Portuguese past and in the poor Portuguese immigrants.
Let me just end this by saying that if the Portuguese (in Portugal) shared borrowed the same method from our Brazilian cousins, we would tag Brazil as a nation of prostitutes, waiters, phone-sex operators, and construction workers (not to mention evangelical charlatans). It goes without saying, that we don't do that. At least not for the time being. However, considering that we get a lot of feed-back from Brazilians making fun of Portugal, it is only a matter of time until we start paying back.
No, maybe it's just me but I would rather be a peasant or a baker than having my girlfriend labbeled as a prostitute.
|
|
|
Post by Silveira on Dec 8, 2003 9:17:30 GMT -5
You are correct, what I was reffering to was not hostility towards Portuguese people but towards the Portuguese colonization process in Brazil. Many Brazilians consider "a colonização portuguesa" as the root of Brazil´s current problems which is, to say the least, a gross simplification. One can analize the various factors (both negative and positive) which effected Brazil´s colonization but to simply blame Portugal for everything that is wrong in Brazil is a way for Brazilians to sherk responsibility for their own situation. Portugal has not excercized any sort of sovereignty over Brazil since 1822!
|
|
|
Post by Silveira on Dec 8, 2003 9:42:30 GMT -5
Yes. The typical Brazilian is very ignorant about Portugal but I have to say that the Portuguese jokes are not generally malicious and they usually refer to people who were born in Portugal and went to Brazil, not to Brazilian-born people of Portuguese ancestry. They are very similar to the "anedota de alentejano", which came about in a similar manner when rural peasants from Alentejo went to find work in Lisbon, usually settling in Almada, Barreiro, etc. The people from Lisbon began moking their lack of adjustment to the urban environment. The same thing happened with peasants from Northern Portugal who moved to cosmopolitan Brazilian cities, such as Rio, São Paulo, Santos, etc. The urban Brazilians began mocking their lack of adjustment to a more sophisticated urban society.
"Sabe qual foi a maior anedota de português de sempre?
Foi o brasileiro."
|
|
|
Post by ProdigalSon on Dec 8, 2003 10:39:18 GMT -5
Your relatives in those photos you posted look European and most people of the world, who are not influenced but rather repulsed by nazi-derived race ideologies would agree with me. Not nordic, but European, native southern European, who by geographical definition cannot be anything other than European. Don´t confuse what you read on these "racial-myths" forums with the real world. You must be joking? Do the mestiza women he posted really look like Europeans to you?
|
|
|
Post by alex221166 on Dec 8, 2003 10:47:31 GMT -5
The people that tell jokes are often not malicious, but their targets might have a different opinion.
In any case, I disagree with you on this one. IN BRAZILIAN TELEVISION, whenever they speak the word "Portugal" they often start dancing tradicional northern Portuguese folclore dancing. How ridiculous is that?!
Once again, I disagree mostly because of one "small" detail: the people from "Alentejo" are Portuguese. The Portuguese aren't Brazilians and the Brazilians aren't Portuguese. Those are completely different situations, for reasons that I find somewhat obvious: it is a lot more offensive when foreigners make fun of OUR people. Just remember Ray Vogensen to see what I mean...
|
|
|
Post by Necronomicom on Dec 8, 2003 13:51:56 GMT -5
As far as I am concerned, those jokes can only be explained by a pseudo-colonial sense of inferiority and by ungratefulness. I've noticed that some Americans have the similar (albeit more controlled) feeling towards England, and I've also noticed that there is a lot of anti-Spanish behaviour in Peru. I think you are taking these jokes too serious Please explain what you meant. i misspelles the word, its accent, meaning they talk funny The truth is this: a) Brazil is not in Europe and Portugal is b) Brazilians are not Europeans, but the Portuguese are c) Brazilians are for the most part, mixed race, and they resent that fact. The Portuguese are considered European by anyone with a brain. Thank you for the History lesson! ;D d) Ignorant Brazilians that were bottle-fed with out-of-date anti-Portuguese propaganda, like to insult what they do not know (without having the slightest clue of just how much they owe to Portugal) because that makes them feel better about the crappy worthless lives that they have there are no anti-portuguese feelings in Brazil Overall, that's it: most Brazilians have nothing, so they project everything that they hate in their Portuguese past and in the poor Portuguese immigrants. you are making that up it is only a matter of time until we start paying back. So now its payback time!!! ;D I think you need to grow up Alex, most Brazilians are part Portuguese, Brazil and Portugal were always friendly nations, the Portuguese are our forefathers just because Portuguese are usally the target of Brazilian jokes it doesn't mean we have anything against them, there was never any anti-Portuguese feeling in Brazil, and there will never be.
|
|
|
Post by Necronomicom on Dec 8, 2003 13:55:10 GMT -5
In any case, I disagree with you on this one. IN BRAZILIAN TELEVISION, whenever they speak the word "Portugal" they often start dancing tradicional northern Portuguese folclore dancing. How ridiculous is that?! Roda roda vira, roda roda vem, me passaram a mão na bunda e ainda não comi ninguem! ;D ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by great99 on Dec 8, 2003 15:12:18 GMT -5
To Gaypira:
Turks are part european racialy, Insults Removed. Because of that a lot of them resembler european. However they have middle eastern and turanoid admixture. BTW, still there are a lot of turks europeans racially.
|
|