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Post by Artemidoros on Sept 5, 2004 17:31:19 GMT -5
You said that books were doors to the past. Well, if you need a door it is because you have a wall in between. Indeed, I think you need doors or ways through the debris of history. The point I was trying to make is that some nations never had the need to use a pickaxe. The doors were left open. I never said they are the same. Well, the caterpillar and the butterfly are not the same. Or are they? The answers somebody gives depend on his viewpoint and insight. |
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Post by Artemidoros on Sept 5, 2004 17:36:18 GMT -5
<<Byzantine Empire or the glory of ancient Greece.>> i do not mean to be a nitpicker,but it should be "Roman Empire",and sides the Byzantine Empire wasnt real,its a misnomer. OK, Eastern Roman I think is more appropriate. I use Byzantine in English for the same reason I use the term Greek. Just a convention to communicate easier. Doesn't always work  |
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Post by Artemidoros on Sept 5, 2004 17:40:10 GMT -5
My criterion is the cultural impact of the Christian religion. Would you say that a Chinese convert to Christianity is no longer Chinese? |
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Post by Dienekes on Sept 5, 2004 17:49:21 GMT -5
Change happens in all cultures. It's easy to set an arbitrary threshold on the level of change that makes two cultures different, but the real threshold has to be empirical. If we sample many world cultures and examine their continuity to the past, we will see that Greek culture is at the top, together with a very small select group of others, e.g., Chinese or Jewish culture.
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Post by Dodona Underground on Sept 5, 2004 17:51:55 GMT -5
Would you say that a Chinese convert to Christianity is no longer Chinese? No. He's still the same ethnicity as other Chinese. The early Greek Christians were the same as other ancient Greeks. But if a region of China were to become predominantly Christian and stay that way for several generations, I'm saying that they become essentially a different cultural group. Well, it's not inevitable. But I'd bet money on it. |
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Post by Artemidoros on Sept 6, 2004 19:11:49 GMT -5
No. He's still the same ethnicity as other Chinese. The early Greek Christians were the same as other ancient Greeks. But if a region of China were to become predominantly Christian and stay that way for several generations, I'm saying that they become essentially a different cultural group. Well, it's not inevitable. But I'd bet money on it. I am afraid the odds are overwhelmingly against you ever being in a position to place such a bet. ;D Judging from Macao, no region of China will ever become Christian. Seriously now, I am interested in how you justify what you said. Someone who embraces wholly and unreservedly a new religion with the zeal of the newly converted is ethnically Chinese. Even if he has rejected all the parts of his heritage that clash with the new religion. Somebody who is born in a Chinese adapted version of Christianity is not  What difference can a few generations make? In Greece there were prominent pagans (which indicates solid pagan populations), 500 years after St. Paul's visits. What would Christianity change in Chinese culture? Would they stop eating Chinese? Listen to Chinese music? Dance their dances? Celebrate the Chinese New Year and the other festivals? Abandon traditional painting? Stop reading (pre-Christian) Chinese literature? Feeling patriotic? Stop their compulsive gambling (which neither the Greeks nor the Irish did)? Finally, what is your opinion on the effect of two generations of Stalinism and this more recent Part-Time Autocratic Capitalism in China? I think it is having more of an effect than any religion could. Bar having Bin Laden elected General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party! ;D |
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Post by Dodona Underground on Sept 7, 2004 5:42:19 GMT -5
I am afraid the odds are overwhelmingly against you ever being in a position to place such a bet. ;D Judging from Macao, no region of China will ever become Christian. Lost again?! I always leave a casino with no money!  Let's see if I can get through this without further embarrassment. I believe that it’s possible for a large number of people to have beliefs that conflict with the culture that they have. For example, Christians and Jews have survived as dhimmis in Islamic societies. I don’t believe that there’s a Christian cuisine. The arts are always local, though there would be more Christian religious themes and subjects. Even philosophy makes its way into Christianity as Clement of Alexandria said. Patriotism? Gambling? Depends on who’s in charge. Some denominations raise money with bingo, some think that such a thing is unacceptable. So it seems that Christianity can stand apart from culture. Often it does. But let’s see. Artemidoros, you’ve caused me to think more on this. The ruling class has at least as much power as the masses in determining culture. Christianity, though probably only a sizeable minority, was popular during the early church period. But I think that not until the reign of Constantine I did things change in the way that I was discussing before. The emperor not only put Christian clergy into the ruling class, thus ensuring them more influence, but enacted laws that were new. For example his divorce law, made a contested divorce difficult. Christian bishops could settle disputes instead of civil courts. These are the sorts of things that change the way people live. www.geocities.com/paulntobin/xtianspread.htmlwww.kat.gr/kat/history/Rel/Chr/Constantine.htmBut I'm only talking about causes and assuming effects. The whole thing is moot if I find the kind of empirical study that Dienekes Pontikos spoke of that would prove that, in spite of everything, Greek culture has remained stubbornly the same. I await this, ready to change my opinion. I agree with you about radical Islam, Stalinism, etc., having a potentially greater impact on culture than Christianity. Bin Laden as General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party? Now I’m going to have nightmares! |
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Post by Gus Morea on Sept 7, 2004 11:20:46 GMT -5
The statement is pretty reasonable, especially regarding language. Culturally, the Turkish influence is overstated. Greeks always had Oriental inclinations. You can see parallels to ancient Greek art farther East, even the Far East, for instance. Their style of dress.... I remember reading somewhere that ancient Greeks often even ate lying down, which seems like an "Eastern thing" to me, though I might be wrong. Byzantium refined the Eastern memes and introduced a few more from contact with Persians, Levantines, and beyonds. The Ottoman Empire, I dare to say, was just a continuation of the Eastern Roman with only a Turkish/Muslim veneer. It's very obvious that Turkic nomads couldn't have contributed as much to Anatolia in the way of culture: they switched from one incompatible lifestyle to another (indigenous) one. So there was a new CEO, but the company largely stayed the same. There are, indeed, lots of loan words (Latin and Turkish). There are "foreign" instruments, foods, etc. as well. But all these are just the things you'd expect. Gyros (doner kebabs) and bouzouki, for instance, only reflect what McDonalds and the electric guitar do: a people that likes to keep up-to-date in whatever situation they're in. I don't know much about other well-preserved people. I'd guess the Jews are. Would the statement that "the Greeks have had essentially the same culture, language, and land for at least 3000 years" be a reasonable statement? I believe so, some others seem to feel that cultural preservation is an impossibility and not worth worrying about. Aside from the adoption of Christianity, what are some other memes which might have been picked up and assimilated into modern Greek culture. Also, what would be some other examples of well-preserved cultures (and ethnicities). Thanks |
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Post by alex221166 on Sept 7, 2004 20:36:32 GMT -5
I am afraid the odds are overwhelmingly against you ever being in a position to place such a bet. ;D Judging from Macao, no region of China will ever become Christian. Macao has tens of thousands of Christians and one of the main symbols of the city is the ruins of the cathedral. China on the other hand, has several millions of Christians (many of whom are also Catholics). The reason why Christendom hasn't achieved more success in China is thanks to the Communist regime. Just as a sidenote, just 40 years after the arrival of the Portuguese in Japan, the Portuguese mission in Japan had managed to convert more than 150.000 Japanese to Roman Catholicism. What happened to them? Most were murdered, many fled to Macao and a few others fled to the Phillipinnes and to Spain. Had history taken a slightly different turn, and Japan - one of Asia's most traditional nations - could very well be Christian territory. |
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Post by Artemidoros on Sept 8, 2004 5:15:10 GMT -5
Lost again?! I always leave a casino with no money! You have just stumbled on a Greek that doesn't gamble and doesn't even like ouzo. A freak, a pseudo-Greek or a highly culturally evolved one? Rare in any case  Yes, I think sometimes it has a profound cultural effect and sometimes a subtler one. I think the latter was the case in Greece. To give some exambles, the most important pagan festivals were consciously incorporated by the Church in the Christian calendar. Christmas and Easter or the summer festival of St. John with the jumping over fires. If you watched the closing ceremony of the Olympics you will know what I mean. The ancient Anthesteria, when the souls of the dead come up from the Underworld, are now the Psycho-Sabbata of February. Incidentally, even after all this time the Greeks speak of - and believed until recently- the"Katw Cosmos", the dark Underworld and the "Charos", the ancient Charwn. Only the rowdy, full of scurrility, sexual elements and potentially subversive precursors of the Carnival the Church tried to ban (6th Ecumenical Synod in 692 BC). The result is that not only it survived, phallic symbols, goatskins and all, but has been de facto included in the Orthodox calendar. The Byzantine elite so admired the Classical Civilization that they refused to write in anything other than Attic and Constantinople was full of statues of pagan gods, including the Zeus of Olympia. The library at Constantinople had 120,000 books, most of them ancient copies. The importance the Orthodox Church gives to St. Constantine (equal to the Apostles), gives weight to your claim. I do not know the first thing about law but generally the Byzantines were using Roman Law as codified by Justinian. I don't know about Dienekes' empirical threshold but to me this  is not very different from this  Just my opinion |
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Post by Artemidoros on Sept 8, 2004 5:48:36 GMT -5
Gyros (doner kebabs) and bouzouki, for instance, only reflect what McDonalds and the electric guitar do: a people that likes to keep up-to-date in whatever situation they're in.
The bouzouki has a pear-shaped sound-box and a fretboard of 60-70cm length, with metallic frets. It has three double metallic strings (each pair tuned in unison). Its basic tuning is D-A-Doct. There are variations such as the G-A-D or A-E-Aoct., not currently used. Fourty years ago a fourth string was added; regarding the intervals the new D-A-F-C tuning became identical to the first four strings of the guitar. The bouzouki is played with a plectrum, (pena) which in older times would be made out of a bird’s feather or a horn or the bark of a cherry tree.
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Post by Artemidoros on Sept 8, 2004 5:50:54 GMT -5
Macao has tens of thousands of Christians and one of the main symbols of the city is the ruins of the cathedral. China on the other hand, has several millions of Christians (many of whom are also Catholics). The reason why Christendom hasn't achieved more success in China is thanks to the Communist regime. Just as a sidenote, just 40 years after the arrival of the Portuguese in Japan, the Portuguese mission in Japan had managed to convert more than 150.000 Japanese to Roman Catholicism. What happened to them? Most were murdered, many fled to Macao and a few others fled to the Phillipinnes and to Spain. Had history taken a slightly different turn, and Japan - one of Asia's most traditional nations - could very well be Christian territory. What I meant was that in spite of Portuguese efforts <10% of Macao's population are Christian. |
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Post by alex221166 on Sept 8, 2004 12:26:28 GMT -5
What I meant was that in spite of Portuguese efforts <10% of Macao's population are Christian. Macao was flooded with recent Chinese immigration during the XIX and XX century. There's a reason why only a fraction of the population was offered a Portuguese passport in 1999. There are millions of Catholics in China most of whom are the direct or indirect result of the success of the Portuguese mission based in Macao. Considering that the only time when the Portuguese mission outnumbered 100 missionaries was right after Tokugawa's expulsion of the Jesuits, and considering that the number of Jesuits allowed residence in the Chinese territory was miniscule (during the XVi and XVII centuries, probably less than 10), their rate of success is - if anything - absolutely astonishing. Today there are millions of Catholics in Asia, living in countries overwhelmingly Budhist, Xintoist, Muslim or Hindu. Portuguese was the lingua franca in the Indian ocean for at least 150 years. In Mallaca, Portuguese is still spoken to this day by some, even though the city is not Portuguese since ~1650. In spite of everyone else's efforts - not ours. |
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Post by Artemidoros on Sept 8, 2004 17:32:20 GMT -5
Alex, I suspected that the low percentage of Christians in Macao was the result of Chinese immigration but I think the Christians have gone down substantially in numbers. What happened to them? I am aware of the extraordinary successes of the Portuguese in the Far East but it is always good to be reminded |
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Post by alex221166 on Sept 8, 2004 18:07:38 GMT -5
Alex, I suspected that the low percentage of Christians in Macao was the result of Chinese immigration but I think the Christians have gone down substantially in numbers. What happened to them? I am aware of the extraordinary successes of the Portuguese in the Far East but it is always good to be reminded The number of Christians remains almost the same than what it was prior to the hand-over. A few hundreds moved to Portugal, but most of the Macaense community stayed. There are still a few thousands of Portuguese living in Macao (and the Portuguese community over there will probably grow in the next 20-30 years). What happened is that the proportion of Europeans vs Chinese is a lot smaller than what it was in 1600, for instance. Macao was - and still is - a very rich city and that always attracted a lot of Chinese labour from Guangdong. We can't claim the success of the Evangelization of Asia solely to Portugal. There were a lot of Italians and Spaniards in the Japanese mission (both of them outnumbered the Portuguese Jesuits in Japan), and even a few Germans based in Macao. Anyway, I don't want to turn this thread into a pissing contest. All I wanted to say was that the Jesuits achieved an amazing success wherever they went - and that is solely owed to their preparation and knowledge. They were expert diplomats, scientists, linguists, inventors, soldiers and in some cases, merchants. I recently read a book about the late XVI century Portuguese Jesuit João Rodrigues who excelled in Japan and in China, and the only feelings I have for all of those who risked their lives is respect and admiration. There were tens of thousands of Japanese (both commoners and aristocrats) who gave their lives for Christianity, and this only some 30 or 40 years after the arrival of Christianity. To get that kind of response, you have to have had a lot of success. Another reminder of their success is the large amount of Japanese words rooted in the Portuguese language: What is funny is that they pronounce many of those words exactly like a Portuguese of Asian origin would . |
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