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Post by Said Mohammad on Mar 8, 2004 11:04:17 GMT -5
As to the Yoruba, I never said they practised genocide against others. But I heard their religion was quite a cruel one. You are very wrong. Yoruba religion is not cruel, its simply the worship of gods and one's ancestors. I'm a Hausa and althought we adhere mostly to Islam, we still incorporate indigenous African practices into it. Thats all Yoruba religion is. Here is a site where you can read about it in great depth www.victorianweb.org/post/nigeria/yorubarel.html |
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Post by Said Mohammad on Mar 8, 2004 11:05:21 GMT -5
But didn’t most Blacks units in the segregated US army in WWII have non-combat positions? Serbians had their hard time with the German occupation and their Ustachi(sp?) allies. Some but not all. |
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Post by Mouguias on Mar 8, 2004 11:57:32 GMT -5
AOW Thank you very much for your link, I am adding it soon to my website www.geocities.com/mouguias Just as I thought, the Yoruba religion bears a great resemblance to African-American religions, Santeria and Voodoo, but also to ancient European pre-Christian beliefs. The thunder-stone, for example, used to be a strong belief that Plinius collected in his works 2000 years ago. In my country, Asturias, modern anthropologists have recorded some accounts of this thunderstone belief in recent times. Shango resembles much of European traditions on thunder-gods, he reminds me much of Herakles. The idea that at times he was some sort of sacred king, then deified, I think is a key one in most of prehistoric European religions. Fascinating, I mean it. Can you recommend me any link on the Dogon from Mali? I also found the following on your link >> “Priests of Shokpona wielded immense power; it was believed that they could bring the plague down on their enemies, and in fact the priests sometimes made a potion from the powdered scabs and dry skin of those who died from small-pox. They would pour the potion in an enemy's house or a neighboring village to spread the disease.”<br> This is what I meant, these priests are much the same as those in Haiti, they wield inmense power and scare people threatening them with curses. I think it is highly probable that ancient druids in Europe were much like these priests. They have created a society which seems quite opressive to my eyes, a society which appears to rest much on fear. |
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Post by Tecumseh on Mar 8, 2004 22:32:03 GMT -5
Whatever. You barely know something of Indians south of the border. Think what you want, mexica tiahui. You know nothing of "Indians" north of the border, it's quite apparent. I'm sorry, was I not explicit enough? Just for the hell of it, I'll address your off topic nonsense: You say black slaves, that contracted smallpox from Europeans, are to blame for the disease epidemic amongst the natives in Mexico? I bet you wish I thought like that. The fact is, there were black conquistadors (Juan Garrido), and there were Native Americans who participated in slavery (the Cherokee Nation), but together we recognize the oppressor. (Meanwhile back at the ranch) I'm talking about America, you're stuck on Mexico, I think big, you think inside a box. Sir Jeffery Anherst had nothing to do with smallpox in Mexico, son... Wow, don't ever say that again. I learn my history from the source, my people. Dances With Wolves sucked, btw. Okay... That was way off, I shouldn't even correct you, but... I was referring to written records, not Nahuatl. Do you know how many people still speak Nahuatl?; On the contrary, how many books survived the burning of Aztec civilization? |
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Post by Tecumseh on Mar 8, 2004 22:52:21 GMT -5
Really? Do yo go to the cinema very often? Do you ever watch TV? Whenever race relations, or recent history is dealed, I only see a choir of “my fault” chants from the white side. Remember, movies like “Amistad” or “Gandhi” were financed and performed by (gasp!) WHITES. Cinema is one thing, ask yourself, if white people acknowledged the wrong-doings of their ancestors, would we be having this discussion now? What if his father, grandfather, great grandfather and so on, were responsible for the deaths of your father, grandfather and great grandfather? This was more than a one time occurrence, even my analogy is 2d, it's much more complicated than a few generations. Zebra Killings aside, he has a point. When blacks (and others) speak out, they are recived as racist, and extremist, such as I was. Notice, I have yet to resort to the race-card.... |
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Scoob
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Post by Scoob on Mar 8, 2004 23:29:14 GMT -5
AOW Thank you very much for your link, I am adding it soon to my website www.geocities.com/mouguias Just as I thought, the Yoruba religion bears a great resemblance to African-American religions, Santeria and Voodoo, but also to ancient European pre-Christian beliefs. The thunder-stone, for example, used to be a strong belief that Plinius collected in his works 2000 years ago. In my country, Asturias, modern anthropologists have recorded some accounts of this thunderstone belief in recent times. Shango resembles much of European traditions on thunder-gods, he reminds me much of Herakles. The idea that at times he was some sort of sacred king, then deified, I think is a key one in most of prehistoric European religions. Fascinating, I mean it. Can you recommend me any link on the Dogon from Mali? I also found the following on your link >> ?Priests of Shokpona wielded immense power; it was believed that they could bring the plague down on their enemies, and in fact the priests sometimes made a potion from the powdered scabs and dry skin of those who died from small-pox. They would pour the potion in an enemy's house or a neighboring village to spread the disease.? This is what I meant, these priests are much the same as those in Haiti, they wield inmense power and scare people threatening them with curses. I think it is highly probable that ancient druids in Europe were much like these priests. They have created a society which seems quite opressive to my eyes, a society which appears to rest much on fear. Robert Graves wrote quite a bit relating African religion to European paganism. It's in his book "The Greek Myths." I would *love* to travel back in time to see primitive European pagan societies. But in some ways, people have reverted to their old ways. The ancient Celt, German, and Viking tattooed themselves heavily - just like modern American rednecks and bikers, for instance. We are getting some cool contributors on this forum now - awesome! Tecumseh, which Nation are you from? |
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Scoob
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Post by Scoob on Mar 8, 2004 23:54:20 GMT -5
Right, because as I intially stated; racism towards whites pales in comparison to mass-genocide imposed (by whites) upon non-whites. So? Whites are also the most tolerant and open people in the world. No other race in recent history has opened up its nations to all other peoples of the world, to become full citizens. As has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread, genocide is common in human history. So what? Dead men have no complaints! Primitive tribal Europeans, like the Germans and Celts, held prisoners-of-war as slaves, I believe. This is pretty common practice. Institutionalized slavery, such as existed in ancient Egypt, Rome, or the American plantations and haciendas is just a more developed form of it. When you live on someone else's turf, you live by their rules. What makes it their turf? Because they kicked butt to get it, or they are willing and able to kick butt to keep it. Really? I've been to the American South, and didn't notice any Great Pyramids there. Why? Because the Jews are highly educated, have established highly successful social networks to help each other out, and are very amibitious people in the modern economy. Every Native American I've ever met has sort of been a redneck. The white man's mistake was not finishing the job of genocide. And I say this not out of disrespect for your people, but simply because dead men tell no tales. My father married a pure Cherokhee..... my mother's people were ashamed of me... The Indians said that I was white by law. The white man always called me Indian Squaw... Sorry, couldn't resist. Glad to hear your voice at the board, actually. :-) And as for the whining. The white man's day in the USA is reaching dusk, it seems. As you pointed out, Latinamericans, of partly Amerind ancestry (like you) are becoming a dominant force. Why bitch about past losses like an old woman? Why not ride the wave, enjoy life? This nation is beautiful, many doors are open to you. The white man made his conquest a century ago - yet you still think of him as an "Opressor." That's victim mentality. Learn from the white man: decide what you want, and go out into the world and kick butt to get it. Make your people proud! |
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Post by Said Mohammad on Mar 9, 2004 0:30:16 GMT -5
AOW Thank you very much for your link, I am adding it soon to my website www.geocities.com/mouguias Just as I thought, the Yoruba religion bears a great resemblance to African-American religions, Santeria and Voodoo, but also to ancient European pre-Christian beliefs. The thunder-stone, for example, used to be a strong belief that Plinius collected in his works 2000 years ago. In my country, Asturias, modern anthropologists have recorded some accounts of this thunderstone belief in recent times. Shango resembles much of European traditions on thunder-gods, he reminds me much of Herakles. The idea that at times he was some sort of sacred king, then deified, I think is a key one in most of prehistoric European religions. Fascinating, I mean it. Can you recommend me any link on the Dogon from Mali? I also found the following on your link >> “Priests of Shokpona wielded immense power; it was believed that they could bring the plague down on their enemies, and in fact the priests sometimes made a potion from the powdered scabs and dry skin of those who died from small-pox. They would pour the potion in an enemy's house or a neighboring village to spread the disease.”<br> This is what I meant, these priests are much the same as those in Haiti, they wield inmense power and scare people threatening them with curses. I think it is highly probable that ancient druids in Europe were much like these priests. They have created a society which seems quite opressive to my eyes, a society which appears to rest much on fear. I'm afraid you are still highly wrong. Yoruba Orisha priests do not use their authority as priests to spread terror and are not oppressive in nature. I know Yoruba culture quite well and they've never done that too my knowledge. You have good and bad in every religion but that is not justification for calling an entire group of people oppresssive and fearful. A derivative of the same religion is practiced in Brazil and Cuba and they're certainly not violent. Most of those in Haiti aren't even violent and the recent uprising in Haiti has nothing to do with voodoo despite false information to the contrary. |
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Post by Tecumseh on Mar 9, 2004 1:04:41 GMT -5
So? Whites are also the most tolerant and open people in the world. No other race in recent history has opened up its nations to all other peoples of the world, to become full citizens. As has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread, genocide is common in human history. I can't disagree with that. lol. I agree-- with that being said, why was this thread created? It's no great mystery, we know why white people are the most targeted for racism these days. I've met quite a few "rednecks" myself, sadly... Next time look out for black slums. Jews were given their own country, and most of them aren't even Semitic. I find this ridiculous, no matter how educated they are. There is no denying that. (Whoa; this was the last thing I expected to read!) Now that's something I can relate to, well sort of. That's not right. Don't be, I'm hyped to see another Native at this board! Truth! |
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Post by Tecumseh on Mar 9, 2004 1:14:35 GMT -5
Tecumseh, which Nation are you from? Shawnee, but I know I have a little bit of some other Nations. The Cherokee and Shawnee have a long history. Some live together today in Oklahoma. |
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Scoob
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Post by Scoob on Mar 9, 2004 1:41:54 GMT -5
Jews were given their own country, and most of them aren't even Semitic. I find this ridiculous, no matter how educated they are. They got the land because they advocated for it. They kicked butt in their own way, using words. Actually that's a famous song from the 1970's, "Half Breed." I myself am Euro-derived, but I have a lot of respect for the Amerind peoples - they just lost a war that they were not prepared for, simple as that - just like the Celts lost to the Romans. |
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Post by Mouguias on Mar 9, 2004 4:49:58 GMT -5
Scoob >>Robert Graves wrote quite a bit relating African religion to European paganism. It's in his book "The Greek Myths." I was thinking about Mr.Graves all the time when read the Yoruba site. The man was a genius!! He was totally right! Don`t haste to travel back in time to see how pagan Europeans were like, most of pagan inheritance I think has survived to this very day. Have you visited my site? AOW >>I'm afraid you are still highly wrong. Yoruba Orisha priests do not use their authority as priests to spread terror and are not oppressive in nature. I distrust priests in general, be it Moslem, Christians or Voodoo. I don`t like societies where they rule. We used to have that here in Europe, years ago, and believe me, it doesn`t work. As I said, I am not any expert, so you would beat me at once in this ground  My bad opinion on juju cults comes mostly from some reports in the media, about Nigerian women who get kidnapped in their country, then sent to Europe to work as whores. Journalists say these women are not only beaten to get tamed, but priests threat them with terrible curses to them and their families, if they not comply to become sex slaves in Europe. I guess it is simple, priests have power on laymen, then take advantage on it - sheer human behaviour. Now, that is all I know. If you prove me that those reports are wrong, I have anything to add |
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Post by AWAR on Mar 9, 2004 7:35:01 GMT -5
ROFL!
So, please Tecumshe, tell us what do you want the white people to do, so that you will stop whinning?
I live in Serbia, but I'm so annoyed with your constant complaining that I promise to sign a petition for an Amerindian reservation in Kosovo.
You just choose the location and wait for a couple of years. ;D
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Mar 9, 2004 9:05:56 GMT -5
Think what you want, mexica tiahui. You know nothing of "Indians" north of the border, it's quite apparent. I know something but I’m not as interested in Native Americans as I am in Mexican Indians for obvious reasons and because to tell the truth they aren’t that interesting. Just compare Cahokia to Chichén-Itza or Monte Albán. Juan Garrido wasn’t a soldier or a conquistador he was also a slave whose only achievement was to be the first man to seed wheat in Mexico because his master wanted to eat bread and he’d found out he got some seed with him from Cuba. As I said you ignore what was going on here. As for the other slave we don’t from whom he got the disease the only thing we know for sure is that the first case of smallpox in continental America was present in a Black man. By the way one of the theories for the origin of syphilis says it started as an Amerindian disease, so if it’s true I think everybody would be even. Why not? American media and therefore American people have always romanticized with the “Noble Savage” who’s in “touch” with the nature. Even though there were people who didn’t buy it like Mark Twain. Very few pre-columbine codexes survived. But paradoxically many were burnt by the Aztecs themselves who didn’t want the Spaniards to destroy. Yet the overall pre-columbine culture continued, unlike the US. The exact figure for Náhuatl speakers is 2,563,000 in the mid 90’s which is more or less similar to the number of people who claim to be part of Native American Nation in the US.Plus Mexico is the second country with more native languages just after India with 62 languages. You see the Spaniards didn’t force Indians to live in reservations nor do they moved them from their ancestral lands, most Indians here live where they ancestors lived during the Spanish conquest. You even have the case of some Native Americans who ran away to Mexico in order to escape from the wars in your country like some Seminoles and some Kickapoos did. |
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Post by Kukul-Kan on Mar 9, 2004 9:10:22 GMT -5
“The Noble Red Man”, by Mark TwainIn books he is tall and tawny, muscular, straight and of kingly presence; he has a beaked nose and an eagle eye. His hair is glossy, and as black as the raven's wing; out of its massed richness springs a sheaf of brilliant feathers; in his ears and nose are silver ornaments; on his arms and wrists and ankles are broad silver bands and bracelets; his buckskin hunting suit is gallantly fringed, and the belt and the moccasins wonderfully flowered with colored beads; and when, rainbowed with his war-paint, he stands at full height, with his crimson blanket wrapped about him, his quiver at his back, his bow and tomahawk projecting upward from his folded arms, and his eagle eye gazing at specks against the far horizon which even the paleface's field-glass could scarcely reach, he is a being to fall down and worship. His language is intensely figurative. He never speaks of the moon, but always of "the eye of the night;" nor of the wind as the wind, but as "the whisper of the Great Spirit;" and so forth and so on. His power of condensation is marvelous. In some publications he seldom says anything but "Waugh!" and this, with a page of explanation by the author, reveals a whole world of thought and wisdom that before lay concealed in that one little word. He is noble. He is true and loyal; not even imminent death can shake his peerless faithfulness. His heart is a well-spring of truth, and of generous impulses, and of knightly magnanimity. With him, gratitude is religion; do him a kindness, and at the end of a lifetime he has not forgotten it. Eat of his bread, or offer him yours, and the bond of hospitality is sealed a bond which is forever inviolable with him. He loves the dark-eyed daughter of the forest, the dusky maiden of faultless form and rich attire, the pride of the tribe, the all-beautiful. He talks to her in a low voice, at twilight of his deeds on the war-path and in the chase, and of the grand achievements of his ancestors; and she listens with downcast eyes, "while a richer hue mantles her dusky cheek." Such is the Noble Red Man in print. But out on the plains and in the mountains, not being on dress parade, not being gotten up to see company, he is under no obligation to be other than his natural self, and therefore: He is little, and scrawny, and black, and dirty, and, judged by even the most charitable of our canons of human excellence, is thoroughly pitiful and contemptible. There is nothing in his eye or his nose that is attractive, and if there is anything in his hair that -- however, that is a feature which will not bear too close examination ... He wears no bracelets on his arms or ankles; his hunting suit is gallantly fringed, but not intentionally, when he does not wear his disgusting rabbitskin robe, his hunting suit consists wholly of the half of a horse blanket brought over in the Pinta or the Mayflower, and frayed out and fringed by inveterate use. He is not rich enough to possess a belt; he never owned a moccasin or wore a shoe in his life; and truly he is nothing but a poor, filthy, naked scurvy vagabond, whom to exterminate were a charity to the Creator's worthier insects and reptiles which he oppresses. Still, when contact with the white man has given to the Noble Son of the Forest certain cloudy impressions of civilization, and aspirations after a nobler life, he presently appears in public with one boot on and one shoe -- shirtless, and wearing ripped and patched and buttonless pants which he holds up with his left hand -- his execrable rabbitskin robe flowing from his shoulder an old hoop-skirt on, outside of it -- a necklace of battered sardine-boxes and oyster-cans reposing on his bare breast -- a venerable flint-lock musket in his right hand -- a weather-beaten stove-pipe hat on, canted "gallusly" to starboard, and the lid off and hanging by a thread or two; and when he thus appears, and waits patiently around a saloon till he gets a chance to strike a "swell" attitude before a looking-glass, he is a good, fair, desirable subject for extermination if ever there was one. There is nothing figurative, or moonshiny, or sentimental about his language. It is very simple and unostentatious, and consists of plain, straightforward lies. His "wisdom" conferred upon an idiot would leave that idiot helpless indeed. He is ignoble -- base and treacherous, and hateful in every way. Not even imminent death can startle him into a spasm of virtue. The ruling trait of all savages is a greedy and consuming selfishness, and in our Noble Red Man it is found in its amplest development. His heart is a cesspool of falsehood, of treachery, and of low and devilish instincts. With him, gratitude is an unknown emotion; and when one does him a kindness, it is safest to keep the face toward him, lest the reward be an arrow in the back. To accept of a favor from him is to assume a debt which you can never repay to his satisfaction, though you bankrupt yourself trying. To give him a dinner when he is starving, is to precipitate the whole hungry tribe upon your hospitality, for he will go straight and fetch them, men, women, children, and dogs, and these they will huddle patiently around your door, or flatten their noses against your window, day after day, gazing beseechingly upon every mouthful you take, and unconsciously swallowing when you swallow! The scum of the earth! And the Noble Son of the Plains becomes a mighty hunter in the due and proper season. That season is the summer, and the prey that a number of the tribes hunt is crickets and grasshoppers! The warriors, old men, women, and children, spread themselves abroad in the plain and drive the hopping creatures before them into a ring of fire. I could describe the feast that then follows, without missing a detail, if I thought the reader would stand it. All history and honest observation will show that the Red Man is a skulking coward and a windy braggart, who strikes without warning -- usually from an ambush or under cover of night, and nearly always bringing a force of about five or six to one against his enemy; kills helpless women and little children, and massacres the men in their beds; and then brags about it as long as he lives, and his son and his grandson and great-grandson after him glorify it among the "heroic deeds of their ancestors." A regiment of Fenians will fill the whole world with the noise of it when they are getting ready invade Canada; but when the Red Man declares war, the first intimation his friend the white man whom he supped with at twilight has of it, is when the war-whoop rings in his ears and tomahawk sinks into his brain... The Noble Red Man seldom goes prating loving foolishness to a splendidly caparisoned blushing maid at twilight. No; he trades a crippled horse, or a damaged musket, or a dog, or a gallon of grasshoppers, and an inefficient old mother for her, and makes her work like an abject slave all the rest of her life to compensate him for the outlay. He never works himself. She builds the habitation, when they use one (it consists in hanging half a dozen rags over the weather side of a sage-brush bush to roost under); gathers and brings home the fuel; takes care of the raw-boned pony when they possess such grandeur; she walks and carries her nursing cubs while he rides. She wears no clothing save the fragrant rabbit-skin robe which her great-grandmother before her wore, and all the "blushing" she does can be removed with soap and a towel, provided it is only four or five weeks old and not caked. Such is the genuine Noble Aborigine. I did not get him from books, but from personal observation. www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n3p12_Twain.html
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My bad opinion on juju cults comes mostly from some reports in the media, about Nigerian women who get kidnapped in their country, then sent to Europe to work as whores. Journalists say these women are not only beaten to get tamed, but priests threat them with terrible curses to them and their families, if they not comply to become sex slaves in Europe. I guess it is simple, priests have power on laymen, then take advantage on it - sheer human behaviour.
