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Post by ulvesang on Dec 19, 2004 13:08:56 GMT -5
What many Europeans don't see about Bush, is that he proposes all kinds of weird laws that would make inheritance tax non-existant. ...We actually like him for his Foreign Policy. ...But he does all kinds of things that support the Rich staying Rich, and everyone else having a hard time getting Rich. Oh, we Europeans know perfectly the horrors of Mr. Moneybags' "working-man ethics." Bush is the epitome of the hated American. Never worked a day in his life, given everything by daddy, and yet still can't share the goods and instead wants to further hoard his wealth, and exploit the un-priviledged. Unfortunately as long as there is the existence of The Poor and The Rich, (at least psychologically: this isn't about money, it's about status and superiority), the Rich will forever try to keep the Poor from becoming Rich, and therefore make the Rich less Rich. As for material goods being available, overwhelmingly, I think that's a good thing, as long as environmental impact is taken into consideration. ...What's wrong with having a pickup truck with a 6.0L engine and 4WD, if that's what you want? ...And it's true, that some of the Lexus' SUV coming out will have some of the best gas milleage around. Overwhelming goods also cause overwhelming waste. No one "needs" a new car. There's tons of old cars being scrapped every day because there's so many new ones that their values are crap. And gas mileage is the tip of the iceberg. America's destruction of the earth isn't confined to fossil fuels. Simply its wanton free market of making as much goods as possible and then finding a way to sell them is causing havoc. Japan makes every ecologically-minded products, but MAKES THEM IN A TERRIBLE, HORRIBLY UN-GREEN fashion. And America condones it. And America also buys it. Over. and Over. One Lexus SUV isn't enough: one American will go through 6 brand-new cars in an 8-year time span. That's my disgust with modern Norway: for a while they were being rich, but also "modest rich." Then privatized industry went psycho on them and started catering to a rabid growing "consumer culture." Cool cars, stylish clothes, funky gadgets. But these goods cause older but still perfectly good products to be scrapped. If your "wants" hurt other people, then you don't deserve to have what you "want." Especially since these malicious wants become needs all too quickly.
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Post by LibLabDog on Dec 19, 2004 14:36:42 GMT -5
Well, while I agree with your personal philosophy, I don't begrudge anyone in Norway who wants a nice warm Hum-vee to drive around in. ...That's their right.
And also, don't forget, that Capitalism has a way of recycling. ...Like in Japan, who lead the use of recycled steel. ...And as a nation, Japan recycles something like 60%+ of its garbage.
I agree with your philosophy. I do think Materialism can corode the sole. ...But that's a personal battle, and one we can't fix by making fewer goods available.
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Post by ulvesang on Dec 19, 2004 17:25:19 GMT -5
Well, while I agree with your personal philosophy, I don't begrudge anyone in Norway who wants a nice warm Hum-vee to drive around in. ...That's their right. What is so much greater about a nice warm Hum-vee as opposed to a nice warm Volvo, Volkswagen, Peugeot, Skoda, etc? And Japan may recycle 60% of its garbage, but it also makes more garbage to begin with... 60% of 100 tons of garbage is 40 tons left over. 0% of 20 tons is 20 tons left over, which is half that of the "superior" recycling.
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Post by LibLabDog on Dec 19, 2004 17:54:45 GMT -5
What is so much greater about a nice warm Hum-vee as opposed to a nice warm Volvo, Volkswagen, Peugeot, Skoda, etc? ...I don't know. Why not let them choose?
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Aybek
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Post by Aybek on Dec 31, 2004 2:41:34 GMT -5
LibLabDog says that: Well..... American fart! You do not know anything about history. Greece was ruling by a ultra nationalist American supported junda (military government) since 21 April 1967 to 1974 summer. You can get a detailed information from A Short History of Modern Greece, by Richard Clogg (Cambridge University Press, 1985), pp 185-199. (and you can find many other sources too of course) www.cyprus-conflict.net/coup_in_athens.htmThey did not stop in Greece and they wanted to establish their corrupt regime in Cyprus too via a coup d'etat removing the pro-Soviet president Makarios in 1974. They have killed many Turks and Greek communists and Turkish population were concentrated in enclaves. Enough is enough and Turkey invaded half of the Cyprus DESPITE HEAVY AMERICAN OPPOSITION. USA has put embargo on Turkey after this. And I want to to give a highlight for our Greek forumers too: "The new regime shelved itself quite incapable of dealing with the pressing problems confronting the country. Even harsher measures were employed against dissidents. Inflation continued unchecked, and Greece, with few indigenous sources of energy, was particularly severely affected by the oil crisis that followed the Yom Kippur war. The discovery in 1973 of oil off the island of Thasos highlighted the problem of the delineation of the continental shelves, and consequent rights to prospect for minerals, of Greece and Turkey in the Aegean. Turkey rejected Greece's claim that the Greek islands off her Aegean coast generated their own continental shelves, and granted licences to survey in waters over which Greece claimed jurisdiction. This provoked a display of sabre rattling by the Ioannidis regime in April and May 1974 and briefly raised the prospect of armed confrontation with Turkey. " Some of the problems between Turkey and Greece was a heritage of this military regime in Greece. But this is not logical to continue these artificial claims by Greece even today. I think Turkey and Greece would live in peace and harmony if countries like America and some others did not involve in their affaires. LibLabDog says that: Modernizing Turkey by United States!!! LOL !! You only created extreme religious Islamist groups such as Bin Ladin and Saudis or Vahabis !!! American were genious to prevent communism and you are seeing the results. Turkey has warned US many times about the possible horrible results for their meaningless policies. Your knowledge did not end since it has never started. You do not know anything about the subject, about Turkey. Turkey was a modern secular country since 1923 and we established it by ourselves. You do not have to know it but at least you can shut up about the subjects that you do not have enough knowledge.
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TonyP
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Post by TonyP on Dec 31, 2004 11:31:29 GMT -5
What about NONE?
I don't like the idea of any superpower really - they always get too big for their boots.
Read Orwell's 1984.
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Post by fatman213 on Jan 5, 2005 5:51:33 GMT -5
Some have compared Europe and America to an elder and a teen. The elder has a lot of experience and preffers dialogue to fighting, he knows the cost of violence. Teen is too unexperienced, is full of life and doesn't comprehend the need for dialogue. We can't blame the elder for being tired of fighting, just like we can't blame the teen for his imature outbursts of violence and his lack of diplomatic skills. I am a Portuguese who unlike the majority of my fellow countrymen, happen to know my country's history quite well. Portugal is one of America's oldest allies, and yet American ambitions over Portuguese territories started almost immediately after American independence. First it was the Azores during the 1840s. Brazil, in the 1820s and later during the 1940s. Our Africa in the 1960s (when American money sponsored Angolan communist terrorists), not to mention the American stance when India invaded in 1960 what was then the sovereign Portuguese Indian territory of Goa. We have been loyal and we have always been screwed. One of the few good things of the past century was that in 1974 American ships decided NOT to intervene in the Portuguese revolution, thus sparing the beautiful city of Lisbon from naval bombardment. I certainly don't blame Americans, and I don't even blame America. Politics is a cruel and selfish business where self-interest always comes first. However, America has an exceedingly short memory. You created Al-Qaeda, you created the Taliban, and to some extent you created or maintained the mess in south America and post-colonial Africa. Your allies of today are usually your enemies of tomorrow, because you resort to violence with too much haste. I seriously doubt that any American has an idea of what it felt to many Europeans to see Serbia being bombed, particularly after we knew that you had used radioactive materials. Now, let me repeat: I am pro-American. Not because I have any special feelings for America (I don't even intend to visit the country anytime soon, to be honest). Because I am a Portuguese, and because we can benefit from Pax Americana, but only if we stand up to ourselves and stop asking the school-bully to bail us out of every problem. That's why we need a European Army. And Euros speak of American ARROGANCE? By what right were those territories EVER portugese? Just ask the Angloans, Mozambiquens, Brazilians, and ppl of Goa who those territories RIGHTFULLY belonged to. I am ABSOLUTELY flabbergasted that this clown Alex would even write their "Portugese Territories", gee talk abou ARROGANCE. And I mean, its NOT exactly as if Portugal is a great nation. What did Portugal bring to these territories; slavery, theft of natural resources, racism. Gee, all those Portugese and Spanish in the NOBEL www.nobel.se ;D
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Post by fatman213 on Jan 5, 2005 5:54:16 GMT -5
Btw, there is little doubt the USA will continue as #1.
If anything, Europe will fall further behind the USA economically while China and India rise. But, the USA will remain #1.
Of course, that means Euros and others will continue to resent this great nation, but hey, its lonely at the top!
fatman213
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Post by ulvesang on Jan 7, 2005 0:54:52 GMT -5
Ummmm, fall further behind??? Someone's not very keen on world events...
12% of US citizens in prison 20% of US citzens without health coverage 2/3 of US citizens overweight Only 1st world country with death penalty 60% of US marriages end in divorce 30% of American families have one parent USA: highest cases of mental illness in the first world
$1.32 USD = €1 EUR $1.878 USD = £1 GBP Ireland: lowest unemployment in the world Norway: world's 3rd largest exporter of oil, highest living standards in the world Finland: #1 environmentally-sustainable country; also country with lowest amount of business corruption Belgium: overall highest healthcare standards in the world, as opposed to US's well... private coverage
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Post by LibLabDog on Jan 8, 2005 14:08:29 GMT -5
Wow!!! I lot to cover here. Didn't read this until just now. LibLabDog says that: Well..... American fart! You do not know anything about history. Greece was ruling by a ultra nationalist American supported junda (military government) since 21 April 1967 to 1974 summer. You can get a detailed information from A Short History of Modern Greece, by Richard Clogg (Cambridge University Press, 1985), pp 185-199. (and you can find many other sources too of course) ...Then maybe you'll like the United States. Because Greek terrorists rebelled against this regeime, and gave Turkey and Greece something in common... ...Someone to hate. ...Oh! Ok, you're sticking up for the Turkish invasion of Greece and justifying it as the U.S.'s fault. Ok, I get it now. (What a surprise, an Islamic national blaming someone else for their violence.) I got to love how concilliatory this guy is to Greece at the expense of the United States. Hey, as long as you two assholes stop fighting, we really don't care if you blame us. ...Turkey's lack of modernization has to do with poor population control, and little education. It has little to do with the United States. Please, for the sake of the children, admit your own problems. Do you have any oil? ...We may need to rework that Democracy a little bit. Hey look, no offense, but Turkey is the worst NATO ally outside of former member France. You guys take, and give nothing when it comes time to give back. If Turkey is so good at being an Islamic nation with a Secular Democracy, why not help Iraq's citizens to acheive instead of letting some tribal dictator break U.N. sanctions and have everyone stick up for him? It's probably not a fair characterization, but when I think of Turkey, but I think of the thousands of people who died because of money swindling building contractors. (As compared to Taiwan or Japan, where hardly anyone dies in an Earthquake region.) ...I wonder if Turkey would ever have the national pride, to build ANYTHING of quality, when clearly tens of thousands of lives are at stake. ...And no, you can't blame the United States for Earthquakes.
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Post by LibLabDog on Jan 8, 2005 14:23:08 GMT -5
Ummmm, fall further behind??? Someone's not very keen on world events... 12% of US citizens in prison 20% of US citzens without health coverage 2/3 of US citizens overweight Only 1st world country with death penalty 60% of US marriages end in divorce 30% of American families have one parent USA: highest cases of mental illness in the first world $1.32 USD = €1 EUR $1.878 USD = £1 GBP Ireland: lowest unemployment in the world Norway: world's 3rd largest exporter of oil, highest living standards in the world Finland: #1 environmentally-sustainable country; also country with lowest amount of business corruption Belgium: overall highest healthcare standards in the world, as opposed to US's well... private coverage Hey Ulvesang, I think these are fair criticisms. They speak to larger problems that exist. The prison statistic is pretty haunting. ...Especially when we're keeping dangerous people like Martha Stewart off the streets. ...It doesn't even cover how in prison, rape induced AIDS can turn a 6 month sentence into a death sentence. Yeah, private coverage frequently means, ...no coverage. This is real. ...Republicans have a conniption fit everytime Democrats talk about increasing government coverage, even for things that would save money, as in preventative early diagnosis. The 60% divorce rate is from the Baby-Boom generation. ...One of the most selfish generations in history. They weren't into the commitment required to actually raise a family properly. ...Keep in mind though, that Brittain is entering some frightening statistics on this. High rates of teenage pregnancy. And I don't know what mental illness statistics you saw, but keep in mind that we qualify EVERYTHING, as a mental illness. ...For example: Housewife1: "He killed his wife, and four children." Housewife2: "...Oh, he must have mental illness." Or... Housewife1: "I've been feeling a little sad lately. ...I could really use someone to talk to." Housewife2: "You probably have mental depression. That's mental illness. Why don't you go to the doctor or hospital and get medicated for that." Housewife1: "That's a good idea."
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Post by ulvesang on Jan 9, 2005 2:50:33 GMT -5
...Turkey's lack of modernization has to do with poor population control, and little education. It has little to do with the United States. Please, for the sake of the children, admit your own problems. ... Hey look, no offense, but Turkey is the worst NATO ally outside of former member France. You guys take, and give nothing when it comes time to give back. If Turkey is so good at being an Islamic nation with a Secular Democracy, why not help Iraq's citizens to acheive instead of letting some tribal dictator break U.N. sanctions and have everyone stick up for him? It's probably not a fair characterization, but when I think of Turkey, but I think of the thousands of people who died because of money swindling building contractors. (As compared to Taiwan or Japan, where hardly anyone dies in an Earthquake region.) ...I wonder if Turkey would ever have the national pride, to build ANYTHING of quality, when clearly tens of thousands of lives are at stake. Turkey is a 4th-world nightmare. They make the Balkans look like the solidarity of Iceland or something. I can't voice just enough how messed up that country is. The day it enters the EU is the day that the whole of Europe goes back into the Dark Ages...
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Post by LibLabDog on Jan 9, 2005 12:43:52 GMT -5
Ah yes. ...Being from Germany, you probably CAN attest best about all the cultural backwardness that exists better then anyone else. ...As penance for WWII, you guys have been letting in Turkish Immigrants for the better part of half a century. (Punishment enough to have committed two holocausts if you ask me.)
So what is it Ulvesang, that makes Turkey such a problem? Spell it out for us.
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Post by ulvesang on Jan 10, 2005 19:57:10 GMT -5
Am I the resident German expert now? Just a week or so ago you showed up on here flaming about Superamerica, then now you're asking my opinions on stuff. I've never felt so complimented in my life!... TWO holocausts? Just ask Yugoslavia what happened in WWI. And let's not forget the little brothers Austria and Italy, who never really fessed up to their errors, and somehow evaded the wrath of the UN... and Austria always has been WAY more conservative than Germany... but I'll forgive your comments... Where shall I begin with Turkey? God that's a huge subject. It's a huge, post-imperialistic multiculturalist mess, a remnant from the Ottoman days. Several cultures all washed over and jumbled together that they've created a synergy of the worst parts of every culture in it. They're extremely indivdualistic, to the point that their country is still not even industrialized. These are people that sometimes sell their children into slavery, but want to be seen as "equals" in the EU. How some people call them European is beyond me... Russia is far from European culture, but they're closer to us than Turkey. Turkey is Middle Eastern, 100%. And they're still in Ottoman-mode: The people like to move to better themselves, but are very passive: they take what is given to them, but never give. However in their passivity they are enveloping all of Europe again. And as you can see, the Ottoman Empire is not concerned with prosperity, just territory. Turkey entering the EU is like the USA opening its borders to free migration to and from Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Individualism and conservatism are two deadly ingredients when put together, and Turkey has both in spades. They've been in Germany for 50 some years, and they still haven't integrated, still haven't bettered themselves, and blame it on the "racist Germans." When German prisons are loaded with Turks and not Germans, maybe it's not because Germans are racist: maybe it's because Turks are living as Turks in a country with German laws. That's why it's hard for me to get along in some places, like the USA. Many laws- and reflexively the mindset that created them, are nuts. But if I'm in the USA, I sort of have to "become" American for a while. Luckily I don't stay in the USA for long... and some countries I will never go to. If I live somewhere, I must integrate. Period. I can't live as a German in Sweden (although I already feel and live more like a Swede than a German...), or someone as an American in Australia. That is bound for trouble. Laws reflect the way people live: it may be legal to kill your cheating wife some places, but not in Europe. And they're changing their "laws" only so that they can get into the EU and reclaim their empire of poverty. People will act the way they want, laws or no laws. If it was mandatory for me to pray to a God I don't believe in 4 times a day, I would break that law. So it may be illegal to kill or abuse now in Turkey, but people will still do it. And opening the doors will open us to their ways. And cultures that intermingle will change. Germans don't want to become like the Turks, and no other Europeans do. AND TURKS DON'T WANT TO BE EUROPEAN. However some don't realise the realities that happen when people intermix.
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Aybek
New Member
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Post by Aybek on Jan 11, 2005 7:09:25 GMT -5
Where shall I begin with Turkey? God that's a huge subject. It's a huge, post-imperialistic multiculturalist mess, a remnant from the Ottoman days. Several cultures all washed over and jumbled together that they've created a synergy of the worst parts of every culture in it. . It seems like you think that you know a lot about Turkey and Turks. Which book did you read about Turkey? Did you ever come to Turkey? Did you have any Turkish friend in Germany? They have created a synergy of the worst parts of every culture.…... So you think that Turkey is the one of the worst country of the world…<br> What is this? I think it is an inferiority complex which was herited from the times of Crusades and Ottomans. This is a clear heritage of Nazis too. It seems like Turks will be Jews of 21th century. You are marketing an utopic and non-existant Europe image. The proof is you and many other Europeans like you. You cannot live with different cultures, you cannot tolerate them since you did never have such an experience in Europe except last 100-150 years. But we lived always in a multicultural society, ruled it and become the biggest political force of Europe during 200 years. They're extremely indivdualistic, to the point that their country is still not even industrialized. Turkish firms are one of the biggest firms of Europe in electronics, textile and steel industries. Turkey is a member of G-20 and has the 16th biggest economy of the world. These are people that sometimes sell their children into slavery, but want to be seen as "equals" in the EU. What is this? What are you taking about? Nonsense. You are dreaming. And they're still in Ottoman-mode: The people like to move to better themselves, but are very, passive: they take what is given to them but never give. These are very vague and nonsense arguments buy even if it was true it is better than to a European-mode, which means being thief of cultures, wealth of other peoples in all around the world via imperialism. And as you can see, the Ottoman Empire is not concerned with prosperity, just territory. Really?!! Ottoman Empire was the most prosperous country of Europe during 200 years. Without economic prosperity you cannot preserve your territory or expand it. This is a very simple rule but you do not want to accept the facts. You have only wishful thinks. Individualism and conservatism are two deadly ingredients when put together, and Turkey has both in spades. You have to explain it in more depth. They've been in Germany for 50 some years, and they still haven't integrated, still haven't bettered themselves, and blame it on the "racist Germans. Most of those people who went to Germany were from rural areas of Turkey but they were very hard working and they supplied the human forces in your factories. They have a great role in today’s Germany’s income level. And you cannot also generalize them as “they still haven't integrated into German society” since an important part of them have integrated into German society in such a way that Fatih Akin’s film has been chosen as the best movie of the year in Germany, Turkish actors and actress have got the best places such as Sibel Kekilli, Turks are making TV programs, theaters etc. and if you want to see it you can realize that in almost every part of the German society there are Turks. (The last news was that The Gay of the year in Germany is a Turk this year.) But you do not want to see them. You consider only headscarfed women or some strange men as Turks without even knowing if they are really Turks or not. When German prisons are loaded with Turks and not Germans, maybe it's not because Germans are racist: maybe it's because Turks are living as Turks in a country with German laws. Give me a proof, source please. It may be true though since if you accept all the criminals especially Kurdish terrorists as political refugees drug trafficking, murder are the best things they can do. (I am not saying Kurds, I am saying Kurdish terrorists). Do not forget that if a Turkish worker in Germany commits a crime or sometimes even the family’s children commits a crime they are deported (whole family) from Germany. (What human rights!!!) But political refugees can not be deported. So most of Turkish citizens who are labeled as Turks are most probably Kurds in German prisons. Turkish laws are fully at the same level with Europe as it has been stated by the European Commission. Otherwise Turkey cannot be accepted as a member state to EU. You are unaware what is going on around you, you are lacking knowledge but you have opinion. Crime rate in Turkey is much much low than Germany. Laws reflect the way people live: it may be legal to kill your cheating wife some places, but not in Europe. Do you think so? Do you really think that it is legal to kill your cheating wife in Turkey? You are saying some places. What do you mean? Do you think that in some part of Turkey there is different law? Where are you getting those crap informations? And they're changing their "laws" only so that they can get into the EU and reclaim their empire of poverty. It was always a crime to kill someone in Turkey. Can you please show me a country on the world that “killing someone is not a crime if………” . But in fact it is in Europe that killing someone is not a crime if you did it in Turkey in the name of politics. They become refugees in Germany. In fact thank you to you. Live with them and take them stay away from Turkey. It is really sad though since you and some Europeans like you do not know anything about Turkey but a few gossips. So it may be illegal to kill or abuse now in Turkey, but people will still do it. It is very strange. What are you talking about? In every part of the world there are criminals and there are criminals in Turkey too. Do you think in Germany Germans do not kill anyone? Just a few days ego Swedish prime minister has said that “we cannot declare the names of tsunami victims since their houses can be plundered. We got a previous experience in ferry accident.”<br> What is this? Are talking about this civilized manner? I thought vultures were only living in hot climates. I can't live as a German in Sweden (although I already feel and live more like a Swede than a German...). So you know the serious situation in Sweden. AND TURKS DON'T WANT TO BE EUROPEAN. YES!! This is the only thing that I am agreed with you. We are NOT Europeans and we will never be.
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