Joined: Jan 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 3,288 Location: Asgard
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #30 on Feb 4, 2006, 6:46pm »
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This is nonsense and the product of a wild imagination. "Half evolved" Negrids? Whats the problem with accedpting variation?
The most interesting fact is that in the assumed core zones variation strongly decreases and before a certain time typical Negrids were found practically nowhere.
Furthermore we have the record of Sudan, can you prove the opposite? Negrids evolved there later, whether they immigrated or not and ok, you didnt answered the Bantu-problem question, but thats ok, since its obvious that Negrids expanded in most of Africa.
The variation is not the problem, the variation shows how varied the people were before the development of Negrids really began, afterwards we see drastically reduced variation, which is typical and the result of strong selective pressure in a region and afterwards expansion.
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #31 on Feb 4, 2006, 6:52pm »
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This is nonsense and the product of a wild imagination. "Half evolved" Negrids? Whats the problem with accedpting variation?
The most interesting fact is that in the assumed core zones variation strongly decreases and before a certain time typical Negrids were found practically nowhere.
There are no core zones of typical anything in Africa, period.
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Furthermore we have the record of Sudan, can you prove the opposite? Negrids evolved there later, whether they immigrated or not and ok, you didnt answered the Bantu-problem question, but thats ok, since its obvious that Negrids expanded in most of Africa.
Wrong, so called "Negrid" morphology appears in Sudan earlier than in West Africa, as represented by the remains at Wadi Halfa, Tuska and Sehaba. If you still think otherwise please post proof from the fossil record and stop holding theories as truths.
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #32 on Feb 4, 2006, 6:54pm »
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Your ad-hominems aside again, how is Cavalli-Sforza and Rosenberg relevant to this study? What is your relevant contribution to this thread? Its been nothing but straws, non-sequitirs and ad-hominems. just get out of a thread you logically can't contribute to.
/
LOL! Run, Kingfish! Here come Sapphire!
I guess you can't explain the relevance of Sforza and Rosenberg, just leave the thread and quit trolling.
Joined: Jan 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 3,288 Location: Asgard
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #33 on Feb 4, 2006, 6:56pm »
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There are no core zones of typical anything in Africa, period.
So Tunesia is the same as Kongo and KOngo the same as Namibia and Namibia the same as Ethiopia, sure...
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Wrong, so called "Negrid" morphology appears in Sudan earlier than in West Africa, as represented by the remains at Wadi Halfa, Tuska and Sehaba. If you still think otherwise please post proof from the fossil record and stop holding theories as truths.
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #34 on Feb 4, 2006, 7:11pm »
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There are no core zones of typical anything in Africa, period.
So Tunesia is the same as Kongo and KOngo the same as Namibia and Namibia the same as Ethiopia, sure...
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Wrong, so called "Negrid" morphology appears in Sudan earlier than in West Africa, as represented by the remains at Wadi Halfa, Tuska and Sehaba. If you still think otherwise please post proof from the fossil record and stop holding theories as truths.
Whats with Asselar?
Asselar is in the Saharan zone of mali and dates back to 6000 B.C. and judging from the morphology of Asselar it wasn't what you would describe as a typical core "Negrid". At any rate Asselar is far younger than the remains in Sudan that date back to 14,700 B.C.
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #35 on Feb 4, 2006, 7:33pm »
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LOL! Run, Kingfish! Here come Sapphire!
I guess you can't explain the relevance of Sforza and Rosenberg, just leave the thread and quit trolling.
/
And you cant quit lying, can you? C-S et al are extremely and conclusively relevant to your whining about bias, which is what you were doing in the post I quoted. Quit holding your dick and answer my question, which was not about your stupid thread. Of course you wont, your negritude wouldnt allow it, would it? On second thought, maybe you're not lying; maybe you havent reached the level where you realize youre not playing the dozens on some street corner. So, if you want to be held in something other than contempt, quit negritudinizin'. C'mon, Kingfish, act like a man! Or is that impossible?
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #36 on Feb 4, 2006, 7:36pm »
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I guess you can't explain the relevance of Sforza and Rosenberg, just leave the thread and quit trolling.
/
And you cant quit lying, can you? C-S et al are extremely and conclusively relevant to your whining about bias, which is what you were doing in the post I quoted. Quit holding your dick and answer my question, which was not about your stupid thread. Of course you wont, your negritude wouldnt allow it, would it? On second thought, maybe you're not lying; maybe you havent reached the level where you realize youre not playing the dozens on some street corner. So, if you want to be held in something other than contempt, quit negritudinizin'. C'mon, Kingfish, act like a man! Or is that impossible?
What did C-S say? What did Rosenberg say? Quit trolling, I repeat, this thread is about skeletal morphology, not genetics. Now please explain the relevance and quit trolling with insults?
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #37 on Feb 4, 2006, 7:42pm »
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And you cant quit lying, can you? C-S et al are extremely and conclusively relevant to your whining about bias, which is what you were doing in the post I quoted. Quit holding your dick and answer my question, which was not about your stupid thread. Of course you wont, your negritude wouldnt allow it, would it? On second thought, maybe you're not lying; maybe you havent reached the level where you realize youre not playing the dozens on some street corner. So, if you want to be held in something other than contempt, quit negritudinizin'. C'mon, Kingfish, act like a man! Or is that impossible?
What did C-S say? What did Rosenberg say? Quit trolling, I repeat, this thread is about skeletal morphology, not genetics. Now please explain the relevance and quit trolling with insults?
/
Now, I know you're not a man. You cant answer a direct question. Good bye and good riddance.
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #38 on Feb 4, 2006, 7:43pm »
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What did C-S say? What did Rosenberg say? Quit trolling, I repeat, this thread is about skeletal morphology, not genetics. Now please explain the relevance and quit trolling with insults?
/
Now, I know you're not a man. You cant answer a direct question. Good bye and good riddance.
Joined: Jan 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 3,288 Location: Asgard
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #39 on Feb 4, 2006, 8:01pm »
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Asselar is in the Saharan zone of mali and dates back to 6000 B.C. and judging from the morphology of Asselar it wasn't what you would describe as a typical core "Negrid". At any rate Asselar is far younger than the remains in Sudan that date back to 14,700 B.C.
Its correct, Asselar isnt that typical and shows a combination of generalised archaic and Negrid traits. I even have pictures...posted it on Stirpes partly.
Wadi Halfa is even less typical, just robust with various primitive traits. Who considered Wadi Halfa being more typical for Negroid morphology? Jebel Sahaba is the same case - same group.
Some group them with the Mechta-Afalou type.
Singa in Sudan seems to be closer to Proto-Khoisanids/Boskopids with rather generalised archaic traits.
Asselar seems to be one of the, if not the earlist finding of a type which was not just generalised primitive but showed Negroid characteristics.
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #40 on Feb 5, 2006, 6:01am »
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Asselar is in the Saharan zone of mali and dates back to 6000 B.C. and judging from the morphology of Asselar it wasn't what you would describe as a typical core "Negrid". At any rate Asselar is far younger than the remains in Sudan that date back to 14,700 B.C.
Its correct, Asselar isnt that typical and shows a combination of generalised archaic and Negrid traits. I even have pictures...posted it on Stirpes partly.
So what was the point of bringing up Asselar?
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Wadi Halfa is even less typical, just robust with various primitive traits. Who considered Wadi Halfa being more typical for Negroid morphology? Jebel Sahaba is the same case - same group.
No, Jebel Sehaba was had a "Negroid" morphology overlain with robusticty, I posted on this subject long ago with information by a study that Colin P. Groves and Alan Thorne conducted on the said material.
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Some group them with the Mechta-Afalou type.
Because of robusticty, no more no less. This is why some nubian material was erroneously interpreted as having "Cro-Magnid" traits also, it was because of robusticty.
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Singa in Sudan seems to be closer to Proto-Khoisanids/Boskopids with rather generalised archaic traits.
Recent studies on Singa conclude that it is not Sanid:
"Thus the Homa Shell Mounds and Singa do not provide convincing evidence for a later Pleistocene Khoisanoid presence in eastern Africa. Comparisons with more recently discovered eastern African materials show that claims of similarity to Khoisan morphology are inaccurate, and that 'there is now little or no skeletal evidence to support a Pleistocene occurrence of San populations in East Africa' (Rightmire 1984:193)."
The African Archaeological Review, 6 (1988), pp. 57 72
Joined: Jan 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 3,288 Location: Asgard
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #41 on Feb 5, 2006, 11:57am »
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So what was the point of bringing up Asselar?
Because its the or at least one of the oldest skulls we know of with clearly Negroid characteristics - not fully Negrid like Sudanids yet though.
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No, Jebel Sehaba was had a "Negroid" morphology overlain with robusticty, I posted on this subject long ago with information by a study that Colin P. Groves and Alan Thorne conducted on the said material.
Thats a question of definition since they have just a generalised archaic character rather than a Negrid one, just look at the skulls yourself.
Furthermore which modern Negrid population is close to that type? Tell me one...there are robust Negrid variants with even Cromagniform character partly and CLEARLY without admixture, but a) you can see such variants very seldom and they usually dont look the same.
But please post the studies again or show the link.
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Because of robusticty, no more no less. This is why some nubian material was erroneously interpreted as having "Cro-Magnid" traits also, it was because of robusticty.
Partly true again, but tell me what are the clearly Negrid traits you see in Wadi Halfa?
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Recent studies on Singa conclude that it is not Sanid:
"Thus the Homa Shell Mounds and Singa do not provide convincing evidence for a later Pleistocene Khoisanoid presence in eastern Africa. Comparisons with more recently discovered eastern African materials show that claims of similarity to Khoisan morphology are inaccurate, and that 'there is now little or no skeletal evidence to support a Pleistocene occurrence of San populations in East Africa' (Rightmire 1984:193)."
Opinions differ, however, SMITH-WOODWARD 1938, WELLS 1951, BROTHWELL 1974 though different. But lets assume thats arguable, arguable it seems to be at least, what does it mean? It means a generalised archaic morphology, no Negrid one, whether you call it "saniform" or "australiform" - it shows other than Negrid elements in the region. And the question how far Proto-Khoisanids/Boskopids came in general is another one, compare with Grimaldi.
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #42 on Feb 5, 2006, 12:33pm »
"....it is clear that several individuals at the Tamaya Mellot site, a large shell mound in the Niger Sahara, were very tall. Only eight faces could be reconstructed and their measurements show a wide range of values. The nose is usually wide, but in several instances it is narrow; prognathism, although present in all faces, varies between slight and extremely marked."
Jean Hiernaux, "The People of Africa", 1975, p.130-131
There you go Agrippa, that variation. There was no one core racial type.
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #43 on Feb 5, 2006, 12:42pm »
Groves studied Jebel-Sehaba and this is what was said:
COLIN P. GROVES AND ALAN THORNE 1999 The Terminal Pleistocene and Early Holocene Populations of Northern Africa. Homo 50(3):249-262. ISSN 0018-442X. Abstract:
We studied three northern African samples of human cranial remains from the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary: Afalou-bou-Rhummel, Taforalt, and Sudanese Nubia (Jebel Sahaba and Tushka), and compared them to late Pleistocene Europeans and Africans. Despite their relatively late dates, all three of our own samples exhibit the robusticity typical of late Pleistocene Homo sapiens. As far as population affinities are concerned, Taforalt is Caucasoid and closely resembles late Pleistocene Europeans, Sudanese Nubia is Negroid, and Afalou exhibits an intermediate status. Evidently the Caucasoid/Negroid transition has fluctuated north and south over time, perhaps following the changes in the distribution of climatic zones.
There you have it Agrippa, Sudanese Nubia and represented by Tushka and Jebel Sahaba were Negroid. I have the full text of this study, Colin Groves emailed it to me. As for Singa, its date is in dispute and today no one believes it was Sanid.
Joined: Jan 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 3,288 Location: Asgard
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #44 on Feb 5, 2006, 1:33pm »
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"....it is clear that several individuals at the Tamaya Mellot site, a large shell mound in the Niger Sahara, were very tall. Only eight faces could be reconstructed and their measurements show a wide range of values. The nose is usually wide, but in several instances it is narrow; prognathism, although present in all faces, varies between slight and extremely marked."
Jean Hiernaux, "The People of Africa", 1975, p.130-131
There you go Agrippa, that variation. There was no one core racial type.
True, but this shows just how necessary a core area was for the spread of the typical Negrid morphology since until a certain date you dont see such homogenous Negrid groups like we can see them today, thats exactly the point we are discussing here over and over again. Those without prognathy, sloping forehead with clear marks and narrow nose are hardly the ancestors of modern Negrids - they show a pre-Negrid population or respective mix, or, as a third possibility a still undifferentiated population with various tendencies - again no candidate for the main Negrid groups which made many parts of SSA so homogenous till modernity.
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As far as population affinities are concerned, Taforalt is Caucasoid and closely resembles late Pleistocene Europeans, Sudanese Nubia is Negroid, and Afalou exhibits an intermediate status.
If you have the full text, what are the traits they identified as Negroid? I just want to know it because I want to distinguish it from generalised archaic traits, because f.e. prognathy was obviously there in Wadi Halfa, but prognathy alone doesnt make someone Negroid and for sure not Negrid, so more infos would be appreciated.
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As for Singa, its date is in dispute and today no one believes it was Sanid.
Indeed, no one said its Sanid, but at best Proto-Sanid/Boskopid and a related archaic form. Modern Sanids are relatively recent development as I said in various threads.
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