"H. sapiens began to enter Europe about 40,000 BP, but it is only at 28,000 BP that we get a fossil that shows any Caucasoid features - the Old Man from Cro-Magnon, in France."
...
How many human races are there? If we look at the major geographically varying characters - hair form, skin colour, body build, facial features, and some cranial and dental features - there are four wide areas over which at least some of these characters vary more or less concordantly. These are:
* Sub-Saharan Africa, where people have "woolly" hair and tend to have elongated limbs, a wide and flat nose, and subnasal prognathism (the jaws project below the nose);
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Re: Colin Groves on Cro-Magnon & Sub-Saharan Afric « Reply #1 on Aug 17, 2005, 7:08pm »
Oh, oh, that reminds me of an endless discussion about the status of the old man from Cro Magnon with human who said that he was more Mongoloid than Europid.
I mean, what are more than 100 years of research and the opinions of hundreds and thousands of great anthropologists if human2 has another opinion and one or two of anthropologists he uses as sources have a doubt about the clear Caucasoid/Europid character...
Quote:
Some anthropologists consider these to be "the major races", and the terms Negroid (or Afrotropical), Caucasoid (Caucasian), Mongoloid and Australoid (or Austromelanesian) have been applied to them. To an extent these do represent recognisable geographic clusters whose skulls and dentitia are usually recognisable.
Political correctness can be just so entertaining.
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The term "Caucasian" is widely misunderstood. Most westerners think it is a polite term for "white". The term "Asian" should not be used in a racial sense - the Indian subcontinent and the Middle East are part of Asia, but Indians, Iranians and Arabs are Caucasians.
Re: Colin Groves on Cro-Magnon & Sub-Saharan Afric « Reply #2 on Aug 17, 2005, 7:10pm »
Quote:
http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=10801
"H. sapiens began to enter Europe about 40,000 BP, but it is only at 28,000 BP that we get a fossil that shows any Caucasoid features - the Old Man from Cro-Magnon, in France."
...
How many human races are there? If we look at the major geographically varying characters - hair form, skin colour, body build, facial features, and some cranial and dental features - there are four wide areas over which at least some of these characters vary more or less concordantly. These are:
* Sub-Saharan Africa, where people have "woolly" hair and tend to have elongated limbs, a wide and flat nose, and subnasal prognathism (the jaws project below the nose);
Groves called the Cro-Magnon crania Caucasoids based mostly on nasal measurements. But Groves does agree with Rightmire that Nilotes and Northeast Africans fall within sub-Saharan morphology; this I know through personal communication with him and I've posted it in this forum.
"We declare our right on this earth...to be a human being, to be respected as a human being, to be given the rights of a human being in this society, on this earth, in this day, which we intend to bring into existence by any means necessary."
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Re: Colin Groves on Cro-Magnon & Sub-Saharan Afric « Reply #3 on Aug 17, 2005, 7:13pm »
Even many of those which say that Aethiopids are the result of mixture or show Europid tendencies say most of the time they are finally Negr(o)ids, though not in the narrower sense (= Kafrosudanid/Kafrid-Sudanid, Nilotid and Palaenegrid). Of course they are dark pigmented and show Negrid traits, nobody claims them to be pure Europids, but they are no pure Negrids neither both genetically and morphologically, in terms of specialisation.
Re: Colin Groves on Cro-Magnon & Sub-Saharan Afric « Reply #4 on Aug 17, 2005, 7:24pm »
Quote:
Even many of those which say that Aethiopids are the result of mixture or show Europid tendencies say most of the time they are finally Negr(o)ids, though not in the narrower sense (= Kafrosudanid/Kafrid-Sudanid, Nilotid and Palaenegrid).
No anthropologists use those terms you just described; either they fall in or out of the sub-Saharan range of morphology. True 'Negrids' don't exist and deviation from a true 'Negrid' morphology doesn't automatically imply Europoid mixture.
"We declare our right on this earth...to be a human being, to be respected as a human being, to be given the rights of a human being in this society, on this earth, in this day, which we intend to bring into existence by any means necessary."
"We declare our right on this earth...to be a human being, to be respected as a human being, to be given the rights of a human being in this society, on this earth, in this day, which we intend to bring into existence by any means necessary."
I'm truly sorry man's dominion Has broken Nature's social union, An justifies that ill opinion, Which makes thee startle At me, thy poor, earth-born companion, An fellow mortal!
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Re: Colin Groves on Cro-Magnon & Sub-Saharan Afric « Reply #8 on Aug 17, 2005, 8:21pm »
Quote:
True 'Negrids' don't exist and deviation from a true 'Negrid' morphology doesn't automatically imply Europoid mixture.
Thats right, it could be archaic (mostly no), it could be Khoisanid (mostly no), it could be Mongoloid (definitely no) but in fact the features deviate exactly in an Europid direction? By chance? No. If you could argue that a small number of Europids infiltrated the overall Negroid genpool and afterwards certain features advantageous there were selected. Or you could argue, that even some of the first people which migrated out of East Africa were more or less Europoid or showed Europoid tendencies and those who stood behind survived in mixture with Negrids and Khoisanids = Aethiopid. Either way, they show Europoid traits, even if it would be later selection, whats rather unlikely, it wouldnt change the fact that they deviate from the Negrid standard into an Europid direction, even if its about features which can't be explained just by the dry climate (orthognathy and positive chin f.e.) but only by admixture or more progressive evolutionary position and specialisation in...
From you later scan: Nubians is a unprecise term, Aethiopid is more adequate. Not every Southern Sudanese and Ethiopian is Aethiopid! How did he defined "Nubian"? Because I wonder, Nilotids and Berberid-Nilotid mixes have oftentimes quite robust skulls, Aethiopids on the other hand usually NOT.
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Re: Colin Groves on Cro-Magnon & Sub-Saharan Afric « Reply #9 on Aug 17, 2005, 8:41pm »
Unfortunately (for me not for you obviously) you deleted most of your postes because you compared Cro Magnon with Indianids and at the same time you said that Indianids are "fully Mongolid without the flesh...", without leaving a space for Cro Magnon being at least EuropOid (-oid read it!). So you probably didnt said it directly, but tried to say it indirectly. And you tried to establish a continuity from Cro Magnon to Mongolids, whereas you constantly deny the continuity to Europids in the West, especially with your "all from the Levantine" theory. One of the reasons might be that you dont like the idea that Caucasoids came as far as East Asia, though that wouldnt change anything drastically. You have your own agenda.
Re: Colin Groves on Cro-Magnon & Sub-Saharan Afric « Reply #10 on Aug 17, 2005, 8:53pm »
Quote:
1. Read it carefully. First man with any Caucasoid features. Ok, he doesn't have prognathism. That makes him a "Caucasoid"? What other features is "Caucasoid"?
Incorrect, Cro-Magnon has an entire set of features which are Caucasoid. Your arbitrary list is not convincing.
Quote:
3. That contradicts your assertion that Mladec I (32,000 BP) is "Caucasoid", doesn't it, since Grooves says the first man with any "Caucasoid" features is the old man of Cro-Magnon?
Inaccurate, since Mladec was dated recently and the article was written in 2003. Good try though.
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Re: Colin Groves on Cro-Magnon & Sub-Saharan Afric « Reply #11 on Aug 17, 2005, 8:56pm »
Some of your quotes:
Quote:
lol Cro-Mongoloid... Agrippa, Dude, just accept the fact that the main European heritage is from the Middle East DIRECTLY by both steady accretion and by rapid expansions (Indo-Europeans) and neolithic farmers.
"the preserved facial parts indicate a flat face with forward placed cheek bones, contrasting strongly with the Neanderthals", is more European than Asian?
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You sneakily sneak into there the word "modern". You know full well that these people were fully modern and looked nothing like "Caucasians", to say the least.
Cro-Magnon also has the same face but without heavy brow ridges or jutting occipults but have a gracile, modern African-like cranial vault of moderns. Paired with his flat face he is rather Eskimo-like, who have sometimes the same two combination of traits.
You know that Eskimids are considered being Mongolid now.
My answer: Yes, I'm superficial but a narrow dolichocephalic skull is just "African-like" *lol* Even if a professional is saying that it sounds like joke. Chancelade is much closer to Eskimids anyway and you can compare the two skulls. What you are trying to insinusate my person, you and the sources you are quoting are doing, they see features and link them to modern populations like they want. In fact they are just undifferentiated but the features which are more clear going in a rather Europoid direction. Robust and rather prominent cheekbones yes, but to call the Cro-Magnon face "flat" compared to other findings from that time is a joke, even if compared with "Africans" and "Eskimos".
Re: Colin Groves on Cro-Magnon & Sub-Saharan Afric « Reply #12 on Aug 17, 2005, 8:57pm »
Quote:
What I said was that the old man of Cro-Magnon had a broad face and a dolichocranic skull, kind of like a Khoisan or Eskimo.
Mongoloids have high flat faces with flat noses. Cro-Magnon had a low wide face with a strongly projecting nose and retracted malars. There is nothing "Eskimo-like" in Cro-Magnon.
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Re: Colin Groves on Cro-Magnon & Sub-Saharan Afric « Reply #14 on Aug 17, 2005, 9:00pm »
I dont answer what you has written, I answered it in 100 posts, you just have your own agenda, but if its about this:
Quote:
It's not my theory. All the mtDNA lineages are derived from the Levant. Why? Because the roots and epicenters are there.
All Eurasians might have come one or another way through the Levant, the point is when, before or after the end of the Upper Palaeolithicum and did they entered Europe via West Asia or not and did those lines survive and I say yes.
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Read it carefully. First man with any Caucasoid features. Ok, he doesn't have prognathism. That makes him a "Caucasoid"? What other features is "Caucasoid"?![[avatar]](http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/4/45/Imperial_Emblem.gif "[avatar]")