Re: Anthropology of East Slavs « Reply #60 on Apr 5, 2005, 1:25am »
Quote:
According to dyn, the first person is an ethnic Russian, do you have information that he is a Kurd? And, no, I did not classify him as "Mongoloid". In the future try to be more accurate.
I meant that that guy somewhat reminds me of the Kurdish leader Ocalan. Anyway, all I can really say about him is that he was born in Bashkiria and that his name seems to be of the ethnic Russian form. My entire methodology in selecting those pics was to go by name, which is admittedly a rather perilious approach needless to say. There was no other selection of any kind; I just posted all of them. The point was that even going by this unsound methodology, that "Caspian zone" is bs.
Re: Anthropology of East Slavs « Reply #62 on Apr 5, 2005, 1:28am »
Quote:
I meant that that guy somewhat reminds me of the Kurdish leader Ocalan. Anyway, all I can really say about him is that he was born in Bashkiria and that his name seems to be of the ethnic Russian form. My entire methodology in selecting those pics was to go by name, which is admittedly a rather perilious approach needless to say. There was no other selection of any kind; I just posted all of them. The point was that even going by this unsound methodology, that "Caspian zone" is bs.
I did not question your identification of him, I just corrected Ardashir who stated that he was a Kurd.
Re: Anthropology of East Slavs « Reply #65 on Apr 6, 2005, 6:30am »
Soviet/Russian anthropological science says that Russians are homogenous racially:
N 1 of Soviet/Russian anthropology - V.V. Bunak
Quote:
В.В. Бунак:
Русское население восточной Европы образует сравнительно однородную группу антропологических вариантов.
Источник: Происхождение и этническая история... С. 138
Quote:
V.V. Bunak:
Russian population of Eastern Europe make up a relatively homogenous group of anthropological variants.
Source: Origins and ethnical history... P. 138
Number 2 of Soviet/Russian anthropology - V.P. Alekseev
Quote:
В.П. Алексеев:
Сравнительное однообразие распространено на огромной территории... характерная для русского населения комбинация краниологических признаков распространилась на огромной территории от Архангельска до Курска и от Смоленска до Вологды и Пензы<br> Источник: Алексеев В.П. Происхождение народов Восточной Европы. М., 1969. С. 133.
Quote:
V.P. Alekseev:
Relative homogenity is spread over a huge territory... characteristic for the Russian population combination of craniological features has spread over a huge territory from Arkhangelsk to Kursk and Smolensk to Vologda and Penza.
Source: Alexeev V.P. Origins of peoples of Eastern Europe. P. 133
N 3 of Soviet/Russian anthropology - T.I. Alekseeva
Quote:
Т.И. Алексеева:
Представление об общем для всего русского населения антропологическом типе подтверждается многочисленными краниологическими данными, относящимися к VII-XVIII вв. и охватывающим почти всю территорию нынешнего расселения русских, исключая Сибирь. <br> Источник: Русские. С. 60-61
Quote:
T.I. Alekseeva
Notion about the common anthropological type for the entire Russian population is verified by extensive craniological data from almost every region of modern settlement of Russians, excluding Siberia.
Source: Russians, P. 60-61
One of the most prominent modern Russian anthropologists - V.E. Deryabin
Quote:
В. Е. Дерябин:
«Русские по своему расовому составу - типичные европеоиды, по большинству антропологических признаков занимающие центральное положение среди народов зарубежной Европы и отличающиеся несколько более светлой пигментацией глаз и волос и менее интенсивным ростом бороды и более крупными размерами носа».
В.Е.Дерябин. Восточные славяне. Антропология и этническая история. C. 23
Quote:
V.E. Deryabin:
Russians are typical Europeoids racially, who occupy the central position among peoples of foreign Europe according to most features and differing by somewhat lighter pigmentation of eyes and hairs abnd less intensive growth of beard and larger dimentions of nose
Source: V.E. Deryabin. Eastern Slavs. Anthropology and Ethnic history. P. 23
In other words, the absolute majority of Russians belong to the single race.
Re: Anthropology of East Slavs « Reply #66 on Apr 6, 2005, 6:40am »
Anthropological homogenity of Russian is verified by genetical data.
According to "Mitochondrial DNA Variation in Two Russian Populations from Novgorod Oblast" by A. V. Lunkina, G. A. Denisova, M. V. Derenko, and B. A. Malyarchuk various Russian regions - western, eastern, northern and southern do not differ genetically from each other:
Re: Anthropology of East Slavs « Reply #67 on Apr 6, 2005, 7:02am »
According to Soviet/Russian anthropologists Russian have Uralic admixture only in the most distant NE territories of main settlement.
Quote:
В.В. Бунак:
Наиболее характерные варианты русского антропологического типа - ильменский и верхнеокский - на востоке несколько видоизменяются под влиянием уральских групп.
Источник: Происхождение и этническая история. С. 172 <br>
Quote:
V.V. Bunak:
The most characteristic variants of the Russian anthropological type - Ilmen and Upper-Oka [types] - in the East somewhat different due to influence of Uralic groups.
Source: Origins and ethnical history... P. 172
Quote:
Т.И. Алексеева:
Лапоноидные, или, вернее, субуральские черты... проявляются только у русских крайних северных и восточных районов их преимущественного расселения.
Источник: Русские. С. 71
Quote:
T.I. Alekseeva:
Lappinoid or rather sub-Uralic features... appear only in Russians of the most northern and most eastern regions of their main settlement.
Source: Russians. P. 71
It means that only a handful of Russians have some Uralic features, as the regions in question are very scarcely settled.
Re: Anthropology of East Slavs « Reply #68 on Apr 10, 2005, 10:16am »
Some further weakpoints of the article:
The so called "balto-nordic" mixed eastern european type should rather be recognised as a type on its own instead of a mixture with allegedly "nordic" influence. It's the main element in the core area of central russia. Not very tall, relatively light coloured, low cephalic index, and with a typical slight flattenig of the face, and a slightly broader nose than in western europeans. As all LBI-maps show, the "eastern alpine" element is at most a minor influence there.
Secondly, the europid component of the uralic type isn't worked out clearly enough. The mongolid features are overemphasized (as they are already well enough known). the uralic type is (or rather was) also a distinct europid type (with no similarity to the lapponoids!) if you neglect for once the mongolid admixture. It seems like the text somehow alludes to this in the description of the volga-subtype. But then it next mentions a turanic-turkic link I fail to understand.
Third, the Ukrainians on the whole (at least if we proceed to the south) are rather tall, dark and slightly brachycephalic. But there is not a real dinaric or noric strain there. They just don't look like that. The vault height isn't that high neither. But obviously they are neither balto-nordic nor "pontic" (in the pontic-russians sense correctly applicated before). At best they should perhaps be classified as tall eastern alpines, brachycephalized mediterraneans or as a distinct ukrainian type. There is no mesocephalic area in the Ukraine. In the north some are baltic, others resemble the pontic type (=the south-western Russians), but very often brachycephalic, with baltic admixture. Take for example the Klitchkos.
Re: Anthropology of East Slavs « Reply #69 on Apr 11, 2005, 12:51am »
Quote:
Some further weakpoints of the article:
The so called "balto-nordic" mixed eastern european type should rather be recognised as a type on its own instead of a mixture with allegedly "nordic" influence.
True.
But where did you learn it? What sources did you use? western or eastern European?
Quote:
It's the main element in the core area of central russia. Not very tall, relatively light coloured, low cephalic index, and with a typical slight flattenig of the face, and a slightly broader nose than in western europeans. As all LBI-maps show, the "eastern alpine" element is at most a minor influence there.
Can you post a quote or anthropological data showing that "typical slight facial flattening" or "slightly broader nose than in Westertn Europeans"? Are you aware of any study which evaluated facial flatness in Western Europeans?
Also, the broader nose idea is not backed by up-dated data.
Quote:
Secondly, the europid component of the uralic type isn't worked out clearly enough. The mongolid features are overemphasized (as they are already well enough known). the uralic type is (or rather was) also a distinct europid type (with no similarity to the lapponoids!) if you neglect for once the mongolid admixture. It seems like the text somehow alludes to this in the description of the volga-subtype. But then it next mentions a turanic-turkic link I fail to understand.
Don't even try to understand. It was written by a looney.
Quote:
Third, the Ukrainians on the whole (at least if we proceed to the south) are rather tall, dark and slightly brachycephalic. But there is not a real dinaric or noric strain there. They just don't look like that. The vault height isn't that high neither. But obviously they are neither balto-nordic nor "pontic" (in the pontic-russians sense correctly applicated before). At best they should perhaps be classified as tall eastern alpines, brachycephalized mediterraneans or as a distinct ukrainian type.
Eastern Alpines - that's what Soviet anthropology says.
Quote:
There is no mesocephalic area in the Ukraine. In the north some are baltic, others resemble the pontic type (=the south-western Russians), but very often brachycephalic, with baltic admixture.
There is a tiny mesocephalic enclave of the Ilmen-Dniepr zone in the very North.
However, Northern Ukrainians differ sharply from Northenr Belarussians who are of the Baltic type.
Northern Ukrainians (and Southern Belorussians) are of the Polessje/Polessian type, which is very robust in comparison with the Baltic/Valdaic type of Northern Belorussians, Western Russians andSouthern Lithuanians.
Quote:
Take for example the Klitchkos.
They're not Baltic. They're Alpines plus something else...
Re: Anthropology of East Slavs « Reply #70 on Apr 11, 2005, 8:44am »
Quote:
But where did you learn it? What sources did you use? western or eastern European?
It's from the series "Rassengeschichte der Menschheit", edited by Ilse Schwidetzky. Vol 4, "Europa II: Ost- und Nordeuropa", 1976. I think, the author was an eastern European, but I'm not sure.
Quote:
Can you post a quote or anthropological data showing that "typical slight facial flattening" or "slightly broader nose than in Westertn Europeans"? Are you aware of any study which evaluated facial flatness in Western Europeans? Also, the broader nose idea is not backed by up-dated data.
It's all in the mentioned book. It should perhaps be added, that it's just meant to be average differences.
Re: Anthropology of East Slavs « Reply #71 on Apr 11, 2005, 9:07am »
Quote:
It's from the series "Rassengeschichte der Menschheit", edited by Ilse Schwidetzky. Vol 4, "Europa II: Ost- und Nordeuropa", 1976. I think, the author was an eastern European, but I'm not sure.
I believe I've read that book too. But I'm sure it did not contain any specific anthropological data, only observations... I believe that the phrase about "facial flatness" was misinterpreted. Indeed it's stated that facial flatness exist in EE, but only in some peripheral groups.
Acc. to data I have the bulk of Russians don't differ in this regard from peoples of the Caucasus, and have more profiled (?) faces than Ukrainians and Baltics, not to mention Finns.
Re: Anthropology of East Slavs « Reply #72 on Apr 11, 2005, 9:16am »
Well I'm quite sure to remember having seen some statistics there, too. I don't know if you would accept that as anthropological data, since it was mostly just the results, no raw data.
Perhaps I have misunderstood a formulation saying litterally, that there is on average slightly less horizontal facial relief in the s.c. eastern European type. Doesn't this mean the same as facial flattenig?
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