African-American genetics

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African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 27, 2006, 3:30am

So that people will quit overestimating the amount of non-African mixture in AAs. In Parra et al's 1998 study on AAs. In his study, Parra found that European mixture in AAs ranged from 6.8% in Jamaicans to 22.5% in Louisiana:

[image]

As you can see there is no one uniform pattern of mixture that describes the total proportion of European mixture in AAs. Depending on whom is tested and where, the percentage of admixture flucuates

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 27, 2006, 3:58am

In the same study, the same admixture percentages were calculated using autosomal markers which give a much more accurate assessment of overall population relationships.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by atreyu on Jan 27, 2006, 6:04am

I think people confuse aa\'s with real mulattos such as berry.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 27, 2006, 6:55am

People over estimate the amount of European mixture in AAs period as well as Native American mixture.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by aroundtheworld on Jan 27, 2006, 10:00am

I think those numbers are pretty significant. It's not like the 2% of SSA genes found in turks or something. 16% is a lot.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 27, 2006, 10:17am

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As you can see there is no one uniform pattern of mixture that describes the total proportion of European mixture in AAs. Depending on whom is tested and where, the percentage of admixture flucuates

Obviously. Interestingly most racial typologists which examined African Americans estimated the admixture being between 15-25 percent from what I know (so an inverted "quadroon" for the whole population).

So that results seem to be fair and realistic.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 27, 2006, 10:26am

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I think those numbers are pretty significant. It's not like the 2% of SSA genes found in turks or something. 16% is a lot.

16% is relatively low, a far cry from the 25-50% people keep proposing.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 27, 2006, 10:27am

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As you can see there is no one uniform pattern of mixture that describes the total proportion of European mixture in AAs. Depending on whom is tested and where, the percentage of admixture flucuates

Those amounts of mixtue are certainly not nearly enough to call us AAs a mixed race or mulatto race of people.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 27, 2006, 10:45am

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Those amounts of mixtue are certainly not nearly enough to call us AAs a mixed race or mulatto race of people.

Well, the problem is if you say "us". I even knew some mulattoes - even a friend of mine in childhood/youth - which looked LESS Europid (though his mother was Nordic) than some AA. On the other hand I knew some AA in my city, the difference to Nigerians and other SSA was just striking - I suspect thats social selection because that was no exception, because she looked very harmonious and like an Aethiopid, whereas I saw a documentary about a bad city district in the South of the US in which I really saw no single individual with real Europoid influence.

So "us" in an ethnic sense says the same about the racial composition as if some Sudanese so called "Arabs" would speak of themselves...individuals are one thing, groups another, and about 1/4 admixture is nothing you can forget, especially if certain social groups might exhibit a much higher level.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 27, 2006, 10:59am

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Those amounts of mixtue are certainly not nearly enough to call us AAs a mixed race or mulatto race of people.

If I can find the study on my laptop, there was a study done comparing AA skeletons to Africans and Europeans and not surprisingly, the AA skeletons showed very strong and closer affinities to the African ones. We may carry some lineages of non-African origin but it certainly does not bump us far out of the range of variability found in Africans.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 27, 2006, 11:06am

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Africans sure, but African is not the best term for Negrid since in Africa live many types ranging from Nordoid Berbers to Bambutid Pygmies to mention just the most extreme cases.

But I would agree with you in general. Negrid areas with stronger Europoid influence (may it be direct admixture or local development into the Europid direction) might be representative.

Though again, thats like arguing about were white Americans fit in best - well it depends - a man of Swedish descent in Sweden and of Sicilian in Sicily most likely...

Its similar with AA, some fit better into Senegal, others into Nigeria, some even into Mocambique and many in Ethiopia as well. Neither is Africa a block nor are AA one...

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 27, 2006, 11:19am

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The samples used in the study were San, Pygmies, Senegalese, Angola, Nigerians, Ghanaians, and Ivory Coast. Not surprisngly agina they grouped closest to West Africans with Pygmies and San being very distant. They should have used some East African samples, but since AAs don't have a strong East African component they weren't used.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by tikitorch on Jan 27, 2006, 3:17pm

I heard in places like D.C., the African Americans are really white looking.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 27, 2006, 3:28pm

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I heard in places like D.C., the African Americans are really white looking.

That is nonsense. D.C. is almost 70% black and most of them are not even close to white looking.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by eufrenio on Jan 27, 2006, 3:29pm

Admixture is still too high to be considered non-significant. Add to that Amerindian admixture, and that makes AA´s a mixed-race population.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 27, 2006, 3:57pm

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Admixture is still too high to be considered non-significant. Add to that Amerindian admixture, and that makes AA´s a mixed-race population.

American Indian mixture is far lower and negiligible, not even close to even being considered as admixture. We are *NOT* a mixed race people.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by eufrenio on Jan 27, 2006, 4:02pm

So what does over 10 % non-negroid admixture make you?

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 27, 2006, 4:06pm

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So what does over 10 % non-negroid admixture make you?

What do you mean by "non-Negroid" mixture? I may have some *NON-AFRICAN* ancestry genetically speaking, but it doesn't make me mixed race, remember those people from Cameroon with up to 95% R*-M173? They most certainly are not a mixed race people.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 27, 2006, 5:10pm

Cameroon is somewhat different though, its in the Negrid core area even, though very minor admixture might exist even there, like this woman:
http://www.publicanthropology.org/images....it2%20(XXX).jpg

This team is more typical though and can be even considered being fully typical Negrids (mostly Sudanid-Palaenegrid):
[image]

How many Negrids of that purity do you see in the USA? No rhetoric question...

Negrid Cameroon woman which is relatively harmonious:
[image]

Pred. Sudanid children from Cameroon:
[image]

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Jan 27, 2006, 10:03pm

AA's are nowhere close to being mulattos and I wouldn't call them mixed race either.They pred West African w/ small amount of admx.Most wouldn't look out of place in areas of upper WA in Mali,Niger,Burkina Faso etc..

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 28, 2006, 12:29pm

Well. upper WA is mixed, sure, it falls in the Negroid area, but you have Europoid intrusions, just to mention the most obvious one: Tuaregs. Ethnoracial differences are quite obvious there.
Majority is Sudanid though. I know people which were there and I saw documentaries and descriptions, especially Mali and Niger 'are mixed'.
If you compare with Nigeria, you know what I mean.
Would be interesting to prove where most American slaves came from, I doubt the majority came from such areas but rather from Ivory Coast and on.

Pred. Europoid Tuaregs from Timbuktu:
http://lava.nationalgeographic.com/pod/pictures/sm_wallpaper/NGM1998_05Cover.jpg

Sudanid Tuareg without Europoid traits:
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/coolplanet/onthe....images/17_5.jpg

Pred. Europoid-mixed mother with a European woman:
http://www.turtlewill.org/images/mm-1.jpg

Europoid dark Tuareg with Negroid admixture:
http://www.yjourney.com/blog/archives/mali/P1010105_twofacesv.jpg

Europoid-mixed Tuareg:
http://www.windebank.com/wendy/album/pho....in_Timbuktu.jpg

Re: African-American genetics
Post by human2 on Jan 28, 2006, 8:57pm

Agrippa, would consider Scandanavia to be a mixed race region? By your standards, there is significant "Mongoloid" heritage there. Even Iranians have 9% East Eurasian mtDNA lineages. Do you consider them to be mixed raced?

You keep talking about admixture here or there except in West Eurasia.

The real truth is that East Asia is for practical purposes free of West Eurasian "influence" while many places of Europe and the Middle East are not.

So... are these places in Europe mixed-raced? Yes or no?

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Europoid dark Tuareg with Negroid admixture:
[image]

This is hilarious.
That would make Dolf "Mongoloid".

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 28, 2006, 9:08pm

The Lapps are of mixed race so to say and the Lappid type could be considered a contact type. Lappid and Westsibirid are both contact types (between Europid and Mongolid [Tungid])
There is a Thread about Lapps on Skadi and Eastbaltids are borderline but still Europeans.

However, I wrote in other threads that I dont consider genetic admixture being of importance as long as it doesnt influence the phenotype, neither in the individual nor in its offspring. To me, after that definition, a 25 percent Mongolid individual would be preferable to a 12,5 one if the later would show strong signs of admixture, especially if this would be from a general perspective (like in Lappids) rather negative (non progressive).
F.e. some Nordid-Sinid mixed people are progressive, contrary to Lappids, that comparison would be a difficult question with many things to consider.

Basically the places are not "mixed raced" but individuals are. Race is about specialisation to me first and before all - inherited feature combinations which show up in the phenotype.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by human2 on Jan 28, 2006, 9:10pm

Quote:

The Lapps are of mixed race so to say and the Lappid type could be considered a contact type. Lappid and Westsibirid are both contact types (between Europid and Mongolid [Tungid])
There is a Thread about Lapps on Skadi and Eastbaltids are borderline but still Europeans.

I'm not talking about Lapps you cowardly little hypocrite.

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F.e. some Nordid-Sinid mixed people are progressive, contrary to Lappids, that comparison would be a difficult question with many things to consider.

You keep claiming "Nordid-Sinids", whatever that means, as mixed. They/we are not.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 28, 2006, 9:29pm

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I'm not talking about Lapps you cowardly little hypocrite.

No reason for insults. Lappids are just the pure representatives, Eastbaltids might be the mixed ones (partly mixed).

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You keep claiming "Nordid-Sinids", whatever that means, as mixed. They/we are not.

Erm, please read it again: Nordid-Sinid = Nordid (Nordic, f.e. Swede) + Sinid (Nord or Mittelsinid, f.e. Northern-Central Chinese) and an "Swede-Chinese Eurasian" is mixed, thats for sure...

So I didnt referred to Nordsinid but European-East Asian mixed people...obviously not Tungid, the results are different then...I spoke about recent race mixture, f.e. in the USA, Europe etc...

Re: African-American genetics
Post by human2 on Jan 28, 2006, 9:41pm

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No reason for insults. Lappids are just the pure representatives, Eastbaltids might be the mixed ones (partly mixed).

I've insulted you few times if at all. This is just honesty. Truth. You don't like it. But it's the nature of pain and it's good for you. Comon, you imply you are a Neitzche (I'm not going to bother to look up his correct spelling) expert. He talks about the nature and goodness of pain alot.

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Oh, how embarassing. :-[

I'm so used to seeing "Nordsinid".

Re: African-American genetics
Post by harri on Jan 28, 2006, 10:10pm

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Lappids are just the pure representatives, Eastbaltids might be the mixed ones (partly mixed).

Maybe I have missed out on something but "Lappids" are hardly a pure representative of anything. I mean if you're referring to Saami here.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Jan 28, 2006, 11:42pm

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Would be interesting to prove where most American slaves came from, I doubt the majority came from such areas but rather from Ivory Coast and on.

In N America the slaves mostly came from all over West Africa.

-alot from coastal areas of Ghana,Nigeria,Liberia,Ivory Coast etc..
-Some from Angola and South East Africa
-In parts of the Carolinas they came from Senegal and Sierra Leone for rice growing
-Louisianna they came from Mali and other neighboring areas like Senegal and Niger

Some Westernized Malians

[image]

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 29, 2006, 10:51am

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Maybe I have missed out on something but "Lappids" are hardly a pure representative of anything. I mean if you're referring to Saami here.

True. I referred to them as being as an ethnic group the strongst Mongoloid influenced element of the region and that via contacts and mixture with those "Uralics" similar elements came into other populations.

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-alot from coastal areas of Ghana,Nigeria,Liberia,Ivory Coast etc..

Ys, that should be the main part, mostly Sudanid with (Northern) Palaenegrid.
Sudanid: Eddie Murphy, Wesley Snipes, Whoopi Goldberg (with minor Palaenegrid).

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-Some from Angola and South East Africa

I knew that too, mostly Kafrid/Bantuid from there, a good example would be, though he might have small Europoid admixture, Denzel Washington.

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-In parts of the Carolinas they came from Senegal and Sierra Leone for rice growing

Mostly Sudanid again, but with minor traces of mixture.

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-Louisianna they came from Mali and other neighboring areas like Senegal and Niger

Since I assume not too much Tuaregs or Tubu were sold, we can say that Sudanid should have been dominant again. Would depend on who was selling and who was sold.

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Some Westernized Malians

Sudanid is clearly dominant, some might show non-Negroid influences whether by specialisation or admixture.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 29, 2006, 11:21am

All of these subjective bankrupt terms, lol.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 29, 2006, 11:40am

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All of these subjective bankrupt terms, lol.

Well, read the definitions first.

http://dodona.proboards35.com/index.cgi?....38552682&page=1

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 29, 2006, 11:48am

No anthropologists *TODAY* uses those terms.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Jan 29, 2006, 11:58am

In Louisiana the slaves from Mali were mande types like Bambara,Malinke etc..The ones from Senegal/senegambia were Wolof,Malinke,Mandinka etc..

Wolof man and woman from Senegal

Mandinka man and Bambara female

According to the French this was the typica look of a mende male type...

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On the other hand I knew some AA in my city, the difference to Nigerians and other SSA was just striking - I suspect thats social selection because that was no exception, because she looked very harmonious and like an Aethiopid

Nigeria is made up of many tribes and they all don't really have the same look.So it really depends on the tribe F.e.Yorubas having high cheek bones/almond eyes which from what I've seen Igbos don't have as much.Also,you might not realize it but most pseudo EA looking AA's don't show any clear signs of admixture.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 29, 2006, 12:10pm

IMO, we African-Americans are our own subrace within sub-Saharan Africans

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 29, 2006, 12:16pm

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No anthropologists *TODAY* uses those terms.

But only because they ignore the typological system as a whole. Every useful and accurate typology which groups physical feature combinations and tries to describe different evolutionary tendencies, specialisation, would produce the (basically) same categories.

So its the, mainly politically motivated trial to speak just of gradients and ignore typological differences though even the gradients can be better explained and visualised with typological terms.

We see the same stupidity if its about ('normal') psychological type - "humans shouldnt be categorised and put in schemes" some PC idiots parrot...
Well, facts speak for itself and if the descriptions fit the present reality, whats the case, the difference between f.e. Sudanid and Palaenegrid is just STRIKING, then its useful and temporary, fashionable, politically influenced failures of modern anthropology might be corrected in the future again.

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Nigeria is made up of many tribes and they all don't really have the same look.So it really depends on the tribe.Also,you might not realize it but most pseudo EA looking AA's don't show any clear signs of admixture.

Thats true for some which are of a more refined, more leptomorphic and progressive Sudanid variant (like those "Westernised Malians") - in which its not really clear whether this is specialisation from the inside or admixture from the outside partly..

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 29, 2006, 12:21pm

The terms are all bankrupt, there is so much variation within sub-Saharan Africa itself thats its totally arbitrary to label something Sudanid and or palenegrid. Those terms aren't used because they're scientifically bankrupt terms.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 29, 2006, 9:32pm

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The terms are all bankrupt, there is so much variation within sub-Saharan Africa itself thats its totally arbitrary to label something Sudanid and or palenegrid. Those terms aren't used because they're scientifically bankrupt terms.

So you say there can't be a typology based on features combinations which could distinguish 75+ percent of the people from Senegal from 75+ percent of the Kongo region? Sure there is a overlap but...

Re: African-American genetics
Post by josh on Jan 29, 2006, 10:07pm

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I heard in places like D.C., the African Americans are really white looking.

Hehe, I went to DC almost two summers ago and none of the blacks (and there were a lot of them) I saw there looked white to me.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Jan 30, 2006, 12:20pm

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IMO, we African-Americans are our own subrace within sub-Saharan Africans

I don't know about that but I know for sure that you can find any of those "black" african types in the black populations of the americas except maybe those Dinka/Nuer types.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by ienjoylurking on Jan 30, 2006, 12:24pm

Charlie, would you consider a "pred european" population with 16% amerindian admixture to be white, mestizo, or their own "white sub race"?

Re: African-American genetics
Post by melani2333 on Jan 30, 2006, 1:00pm

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IMO, we African-Americans are our own subrace within sub-Saharan Africans

I bascially agree with this, but I take it a step further. That's also why I reject the term "African-American". Black Americans are distinct from Africans. So are White Americans from Euros and any peoples whose ancestors have lived in the US for the past 300+ years. White Americans are not a bunch of Europeans either. ::)

Neither are these fake White Indians.... ::)

Each group is racially distinct but with some overlap.

Americans, period, should be their own race group. Acknowledge ancestry, etc but today's American "racial types" for the most part, are too distinct and are different enough (among all Black, Indian and White Americans, not to mention fake raced "Hispanics" ::)

) to just be "American" of x, y, z sub-ethnicity.

8-)

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 30, 2006, 1:17pm

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IMO, we African-Americans are our own subrace within sub-Saharan Africans

Neither are these fake White Indians.... ::)

) to just be "American" of x, y, z sub-ethnicity.

8-)

I agree with you 100% Melanie, especially about those fake Native Americans who look completely white but consider themselves as Native Americans. I agree black or Afro-Americans overlap with Africans predominantly but are still distinct enough away from Africans to be our own entity.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 30, 2006, 1:19pm

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Charlie, would you consider a "pred european" population with 16% amerindian admixture to be white, mestizo, or their own "white sub race"?

I would chose the latter, white own subrace since they're obviously not European and not nearly as admixed to be mestizos.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 30, 2006, 1:24pm

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So are White Americans from Euros and any peoples whose ancestors have lived in the US for the past 300+ years. White Americans are not a bunch of Europeans either.

Sorry, but as long as they neither mixed nor changed their type drastically they are in the same categories as Europeans and racially they are for sure Europeans.

Dont mix up ethnicity and race, thats why it is so important to speak of racial types too, because its not the same in every case. F.e. the Nuer-Dinka are pred. Nilotid, but not all of them are Nilotid.

African Americans can be considered an ethnicity, but they are racially only Negrids of different types and with other admixture.
A new race comes not up by mixture alone, it comes up by selection. If there are no selective pressures, nothing new will be formed and things will repeat over and over again with recombinations of the basic types of the population - but no new type.

For being racially a type on its own you need a dominant type, now Glowatzki even showed a typical American Negroid, both a mixture of various Negrid types (Sudanid being pred.) and Europoid influences. But still the majority of people is this or that and as long as their is no racial standard, which cannot be there since there was no selection, they are just racial types of Africa combined with those of Europe and America on a low level.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 30, 2006, 1:30pm

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So are White Americans from Euros and any peoples whose ancestors have lived in the US for the past 300+ years. White Americans are not a bunch of Europeans either.

I disagree, white Americans are not biologically Europeans in America no more than black Americans being Africans in America biologically.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by ienjoylurking on Jan 30, 2006, 1:47pm

So, Agrippa, to you phenotype matters more than actual ancestry?

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 30, 2006, 2:34pm

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I disagree, white Americans are not biologically Europeans in America no more than black Americans being Africans in America biologically.

Well, depends on the exact "black indivdiual" you would present. If you mean people like Wesley Snipes or Eddie Murphy, I agree with you.

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So, Agrippa, to you phenotype matters more than actual ancestry?

Depends. Important is not just the individual phenotype, but the genotypical characteristics which determined it and would determine that of his possible ancestry too.
So lets put it that way:
Two lines of mixed people, in one line the element A was bred out, whereas B fully re-emerged with all typical traits: This individual would be B even if parts of his genetic background show still traces of admixture in genes without function.
Opposite is true in an individual which would have even lower admixture but would still have traits of A because the small admixture was bred over generations.

I mean to put it simple, to be the descendent of a genius but being an idiot yourself won't make you a genius. So especially valuably traits are partly of greater importance than sheer ancestry, thats obvious.

Ancestry matters too, sure it does, and in most cases in reality you won't find a huge gap if speaking about racial types and ancestry.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 30, 2006, 2:50pm

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I disagree, white Americans are not biologically Europeans in America no more than black Americans being Africans in America biologically.

Well, depends on the exact "black indivdiual" you would present. If you mean people like Wesley Snipes or Eddie Murphy, I agree with you.

No, not even people like Wesley Snipes and Eddie Murphy are Africans in America, they're biologically African-Americans, they can look one way and have genetic ancestry thats totally different. I know to you its all about looks but genuine black Africans would be able tell the difference.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 30, 2006, 2:59pm

Sure, there might be a minor difference, though in many I see none, but the difference inside the AA spectrum is still bigger than between Wesley Snipes and a West African Sudanid if looking at the racial type.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 30, 2006, 3:07pm

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Sure, there might be a minor difference, though in many I see none, but the difference inside the AA spectrum is still bigger than between Wesley Snipes and a West African Sudanid if looking at the racial type.

I see , the true Negro theory even applies to black Americans,like i said an African would know immediately that those two are AAs.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by melani2333 on Jan 30, 2006, 3:25pm

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I see , the true Negro theory even applies to black Americans,like i said an African would know immediately that those two are AAs.

\

Correct. Africans can usually tell. Not 100% of the time, but most times. And I'm not talking about dress, speech or mannerisms, walk, etc.

Judging by appearance only, they know who and what Black Americans are - even the dark-skinned ones we think look most African. They can tell. They know we are not "one of them".

IMO, Whoopi Goldberg isn't African looking, despite her dreads and dark color. Wesley Snipes, maybe.... :-/

Denzel, no. Take a group of dark Black Americans and a group of medium skinned Africans all dressed the same and silent, and you will be able to still tell which group is American vs. African.

8-)

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Jan 30, 2006, 3:39pm

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I see , the true Negro theory even applies to black Americans,like i said an African would know immediately that those two are AAs.

Denzel, no. Take a group of dark Black Americans and a group of medium skinned Africans all dressed the same and silent, and you will be able to still tell which group is American vs. African.

8-)

Definitely true. Afro-Americans can even tell an African in the same way. People like Agrippa look at people and make conclusions based on looks alone. using his logic about Wesley Snipes and Eddie Murphy, one could say any AA that doesn't look like those two are mulattoes basically, there are even Africans who look less extreme than Wesley and Eddie but an African would still know they was African and not AA.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 30, 2006, 3:50pm

I can agree with both of you, even I saw that. If I see Negroids in my town I usually see if they are Americans, even if they are from Latin America partly, or come "directly" from Africa.

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People like Agrippa look at people and make conclusions based on looks alone. using his logic about Wesley Snipes and Eddie Murphy, one could say any AA that doesn't look like those two are mulattoes basically, there are even Africans who look less extreme than Wesley and Eddie but an African would still know they was African and not AA.

Again it depends on the individual, its not skin color alone I'm looking for.

F.e. compare this two prototypical Sudanids with Wesley Snipes:
http://www.africarte.it/foto-storiche/Tipi%20sudanesi.JPG

http://www.movieactors.com/photos-misc/passenger57-sm.jpeg

Its the whole bone structure which is the same and many West Africans look less Sudanid than he does. But as I said, the average AA is a mixture of various African types with admixture from non-Negrid, non-African ones. Compare with the image of an "American Negrid" from Glowatzki I posted on Skadi+Stirpes:
http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?t=2343

He said that fully Negrid individuals can be rarely seen in the USA...

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Jan 30, 2006, 4:44pm

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...unless Im reading what you typed wrong,who are these non-negrid Africans?

[image]

^^between the two,who is more negrid by your standards?

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 30, 2006, 4:53pm

Mistake from my side. Though non-Negrid elements came into AA Americans, even Moor slaves and Guanches, at least in some areas (not only speaking about US-blacks), I meant primarily more recent European and less, but still, Indianid admixture.

Correced it.

Concerning those two, I know Wesley very well from various pictures and movies, but the other not and the picture is not the best, do you have more?
They are both quite Negrid, but bone structure Wesley more probably.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by aroundtheworld on Jan 31, 2006, 10:52am

The guy on the left looks like he has 10% medit admixture. He can pass as partially ethio or somali.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Jan 31, 2006, 10:55am

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Mistake from my side. Though non-Negrid elements came into AA Americans, even Moor slaves and Guanches, at least in some areas (not only speaking about US-blacks), I meant primarily more recent European and less, but still, Indianid admixture.

Correced it.

Concerning those two, I know Wesley very well from various pictures and movies, but the other not and the picture is not the best, do you have more?
They are both quite Negrid, but bone structure Wesley more probably.

Na,I don't have any more pictures of that guy.What about these people.How "negrid" are they in your opinion

1.

^^each one

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Jan 31, 2006, 10:58am

Quote:

The guy on the left looks like he has 10% medit admixture.

LOL..I don't think so

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 31, 2006, 11:03am

They are all NegrOid but show signs of other influences, are closest to the Aethiopid category.

This picture is striking, showing a pred. Sudanid male beside two clearly mixed and morphologically intermediate to more Europoid looking females:
http://img129.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=471ae_5.jpg

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Jan 31, 2006, 11:13am

Quote:

They are all NegrOid but show signs of other influences, are closest to the Aethiopid category.

I wanna know what you think their "type" is.Sudanind,PaleoNeg,Aethiopid etc...
1__ 2__ 3__ 4__

Quote:

This picture is striking, showing a pred. Sudanid male beside two clearly mixed and morphologically intermediate to more Europoid looking females:
http://img129.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=471ae_5.jpg

LOL..so you're saying those girls are closer to "caucasoid" than "negroid"?

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 31, 2006, 11:37am

Quote:

LOL..so you're saying those girls are closer to "caucasoid" than "negroid"?

Well, the left one is morphologically closer to Europoid, thats for sure, the right one is intermediate, probably even somewhat more Negroid.

As I said above, the guys look all rather closest to Aethiopid, the 1 has somewhat West African to me, at least the first look, the 2nd looks more East African, like an Aethiopid with some Kafrid/Bantuid influence, the 3rd like some Sudanese people, so Nilotid with Berberid admixture probably, the 4th is impossible to classify with this picture alone, not even a wild guess like in the other cases...

Re: African-American genetics
Post by aroundtheworld on Jan 31, 2006, 12:31pm

Quote:

Quote:

The guy on the left looks like he has 10% medit admixture.

LOL..I don't think so

why not? he can pass as having a Somali parent and one SSA parent.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Jan 31, 2006, 1:42pm

Quote:

Quote:

LOL..I don't think so

why not? he can pass as having a Somali parent and one SSA parent.

LOL..how did you come to this conclusion?Do you even know what that combo looks like?The guy looks like a pure Upper West African IMO.Plus Somali+non-somali/horner is not going to show a combination of traits for the most part like most mixes in the world.It's going to look like the other half.Which basically means you wouldn't see any Somali influence.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Jan 31, 2006, 1:48pm

Quote:

Quote:

LOL..so you're saying those girls are closer to "caucasoid" than "negroid"?

Well, the left one is morphologically closer to Europoid, thats for sure, the right one is intermediate, probably even somewhat more Negroid.

LOL..explain why

[image]

Quote:

As I said above, the guys look all rather closest to Aethiopid, the 1 has somewhat West African to me, at least the first look, the 2nd looks more East African, like an Aethiopid with some Kafrid/Bantuid influence, the 3rd like some Sudanese people, so Nilotid with Berberid admixture probably, the 4th is impossible to classify with this picture alone, not even a wild guess like in the other cases...

Whats the reason for saying these guys look more Aethiopid rather than Nilotic since it seems you're basically saying they can't be "pure" Sudanid?

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 31, 2006, 2:05pm

Quote:

Whats the reason for saying these guys look more Aethiopid rather than Nilotic since it seems you're basically saying they can't be "pure" Sudanid?

You have to look at the shape of the eye region and nasal region alone to see that, but yes, they can't be typical Sudanids, they have in every case "non-Sudanid" influences, even if its all in the Negroid spectrum.

The left girl has just Europid morphology mostly, just look at her, even metrically she would be closer to a f.e. Mediterranoid Europid type than to most SSA populations.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Jan 31, 2006, 4:57pm

Quote:

Ok,hold up and forget about those subtypes for a minute because they really don't mean much IMO since I don't believe "true negro" stuff.Shouldn't they be considered "negroid" and don't they show "negroid" diversity?

Quote:

The left girl has just Europid morphology mostly, just look at her, even metrically she would be closer to a f.e. Mediterranoid Europid type than to most SSA populations.

crazy...so basically you're saying the girl is a "dark" caucasian or a white person dipped in chocolate?

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Jan 31, 2006, 5:08pm

No, I just said morphologically closer to Europoid, so an Europoid type which would be selected for being just darker, but otherwise keeping all other features, would look almost the same.

But since Negroid is defined by f.e. skin type and hair form too, they are still rather Negroid, but the two girls at best intermediate, the left even more Europoid as I said, that doesnt make her a typical Europoid, but just MORE Europoid. There is often not just A+B but various form in between as well...

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Feb 1, 2006, 5:04pm

Quote:

Quote:

Since I didn't tell you the ethnicity of these people here they go..

1.Malian 2.AA 3.Malian 4.Eritrean 5.All 100% Ghanaians

Re: African-American genetics
Post by aroundtheworld on Feb 1, 2006, 8:19pm

Quote:

Quote:

why not? he can pass as having a Somali parent and one SSA parent.

Yes, I do know what that combination looks like.

First of all, I see Somalians all the time in the hospital. I see many Ethiopians and Somalians-many whom are married to Senegalese, Nigerian, Kenya, other African-Americans or to each other. My boyfriend has a co-worker who is 1/2 Somalian. His mother is Somali and his father is Nigerian. when I was a student teacher, there was an entire family of pre-schoolers who were 1/2 Ethiopian 1/2 American black. One of my co-workers named Firewayni is 1/2 Somalian and 1/2 SSA.

Iman who is Somalian has a 1/2 SSA daughter who has similar features.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by aroundtheworld on Feb 1, 2006, 8:21pm

So yes, many 1/2 Somali or Ethio mixes DO appear to have a combination of traits or look like either parent. It's basically a toss-up. I'm basing what that man looks like from what I've seen and he does look similar to them.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Feb 2, 2006, 9:11am

That shows how heterogenous that Northern WA are if compared with typical Nigerian ethnic groups of Sudanid and Palaenegrid character.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by magneto on Feb 2, 2006, 10:00am

Quote:

That shows how heterogenous that Northern WA are if compared with typical Nigerian ethnic groups of Sudanid and Palaenegrid character.

Yeah,Upper West Africa is more diverse but how would you explain the group of Ghanaians I posted who aren't UWA's?

By the way,Nigeria is pretty diverse.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by wahid on Feb 2, 2006, 10:35am

Typical Negroids (From Senegal all the way to Kenya)

[image]

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Feb 2, 2006, 7:41pm

Excellent examples which still show a certain variation inside the Negrid core.

Quote:

By the way,Nigeria is pretty diverse.

True, thats why I spoke about the main ethnic groups and those ethnic groups which are representative. Ethnic diversity doesnt equate racial diversity in Africa since we can see the opposite (less ethnic diversity but more higher ethnolinguistic and racial distances) in some other areas like Niger.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by bertrand on Feb 3, 2006, 2:03am

Quote:

Typical Negroids (From Senegal all the way to Kenya)

[image]

Duh, anyone can find the most extreme ones and post them as typical, which is the same trolling posts that abdul/antonio does.

Re: African-American genetics
Post by agrippa on Feb 3, 2006, 7:01am

You can find plenty of ethnicities and whole populations which are clearly dominated or consist only out of this Negrid types so its rather misleading to speak of extreme as this would be the exceptions.