True, but this shows just how necessary a core area was for the spread of the typical Negrid morphology since until a certain date you dont see such homogenous Negrid groups like we can see them today,
Even today you still can see as much variation as during the time of Asselar and Tamaya Mellot, what are you talki ng about? You seem to be stuck in the erroneous peception that all Bantus and West Africans look alike and have no variation. The variation has been there since the late mesolithic/Early Neolithic period.
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Those without prognathy, sloping forehead with clear marks and narrow nose are hardly the ancestors of modern Negrids - they show a pre-Negrid population or respective mix, or, as a third possibility a still undifferentiated population with various tendencies - again no candidate for the main Negrid groups which made many parts of SSA so homogenous till modernity.
Nonsense, narrow noses, slight prognathy, and narrow heads are all observed in modern West Africans like the Fulani, Teda, and Kanuri for example. None of those peoples are "Europoid influenced". None of what you say is supported in the fossil record and the fact that such features and variation is still found today in West Africa refutes your erroneous theories or core "True Negrids".
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If you have the full text, what are the traits they identified as Negroid? I just want to know it because I want to distinguish it from generalised archaic traits, because f.e. prognathy was obviously there in Wadi Halfa, but prognathy alone doesnt make someone Negroid and for sure not Negrid, so more infos would be appreciated.
Here are Groves' words and a plot on two factors and see where Nubians cluster on both factors.
Factor 1 represents robusticity and factor 2 represents the sub-Saharan/Caucasoid contrast.
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #46 on Feb 5, 2006, 3:57pm »
And again on Singa:
"De Villiers & Fatti (1982) analysed the antiquity of the Bantu-speaking populations in sub-Saharan Africa using both modern and prehistoric specimens. The authors performed discriminant function analysis using a total of 53 cranial and mandibular measurements. Results indicate that LSA East African specimens are not far removed from the recent Negro sample they used. In contrast, the North African specimens from Afalou-bou-Rhummel and Taforalt in Morocco and the Singa skull from Sudan display indeterminate affinities as they are neither closely associated with modern Negro specimens, nor with Khoisan specimens."
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Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #47 on Feb 5, 2006, 4:45pm »
Quote:
Even today you still can see as much variation as during the time of Asselar and Tamaya Mellot, what are you talki ng about? You seem to be stuck in the erroneous peception that all Bantus and West Africans look alike and have no variation. The variation has been there since the late mesolithic/Early Neolithic period.
Depends on the exact region, ethnic group and time. But for the most part of the Negrid homelands the variation is so low that we can clearly speak of a homogenous group which had expanded. That SSA are not all the same is true, just read v. Eickstedts description, you can read it there too.
Quote:
Nonsense, narrow noses, slight prognathy, and narrow heads are all observed in modern West Africans like the Fulani, Teda, and Kanuri for example. None of those peoples are "Europoid influenced". None of what you say is supported in the fossil record and the fact that such features and variation is still found today in West Africa refutes your erroneous theories or core "True Negrids".
Obviously the Negrid core was rather South, nobody said the Tubus are in the area I mean nor are the Fulani, in fact I always said they are not of the Negrid types in the narrower sense. There were intrusions in more Southern West Africa, sure, but the dominant form and type is very homogenous and only single exceptions deviate mostly or single ethnic groups, but that here and in many parts of SSA a relatively homogenous group expanded is clearly visible.
The continuity of a more varied population with partly at least Europiform characteristics is mostly outside and North of the main areas.
the North African specimens from Afalou-bou-Rhummel and Taforalt in Morocco and the Singa skull from Sudan display indeterminate affinities as they are neither closely associated with modern Negro specimens, nor with Khoisan specimens."
Generalised archaic character which was much more common before the Negrid expansion in East and South Africa. Though Taforalt is clearly closer to Europoid, no doubt about that.
The legend of the graph is not visible btw. the Dogon are not fully, but pred. Sudanid, even many very typical examples... But the description of Negroid characteristics is partly really rather generalised like I thought, though its arguable even if the border to generalised archaic forms is fluent.
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #48 on Feb 5, 2006, 5:19pm »
Quote:
Quote:
Even today you still can see as much variation as during the time of Asselar and Tamaya Mellot, what are you talki ng about? You seem to be stuck in the erroneous peception that all Bantus and West Africans look alike and have no variation. The variation has been there since the late mesolithic/Early Neolithic period.
Depends on the exact region, ethnic group and time. But for the most part of the Negrid homelands the variation is so low that we can clearly speak of a homogenous group which had expanded. That SSA are not all the same is true, just read v. Eickstedts description, you can read it there too.
Nonsense, but you can stay in denial all you like, the information from published data that I've been posting prove otherwise and one can look at West Africans today and see the variation
Quote:
Obviously the Negrid core was rather South, nobody said the Tubus are in the area I mean nor are the Fulani, in fact I always said they are not of the Negrid types in the narrower sense.
Fulanis and Toubous are Negroid, what are you talking about? Its irritating to see how you discretely attempt to confine people to a specific morphology when they obviously are *NOT* limited to a narrow amount of discrete traits.
Quote:
There were intrusions in more Southern West Africa, sure, but the dominant form and type is very homogenous and only single exceptions deviate mostly or single ethnic groups, but that here and in many parts of SSA a relatively homogenous group expanded is clearly visible.
Nonsense, read:
Ann Hum Biol. 1984 May-Jun;11(3):189-200.
Climate-associated anthropometric variation between populations of the Niger bend.
Froment A, Hiernaux J.
A large set of measurements were taken on 512 women and 425 men belonging to ten populations of the Niger bend area, some of which live in the Sahelian, the other in the Sudanian climatic zones about 200 km apart. The two zones differ chiefly by a two-fold higher annual rainfall in the Sudanian zone. The pattern of differences in body weight, skinfold and limb circumferences suggests that the Sahelians allot proportionally more food and/or less physical work to women than the Sudanians . In one or both sexes, Sahelians have significantly longer lower limbs and forearms, larger hands and ears, a narrower face, and a higher and narrower nose. Sexual dimorphism of the shoulder-hip-width proportions is lower in the Sahelians , resulting from the Sahelian males, but not females, having wider hips, whereas Sahelians of both sexes have narrower shoulders. Multivariate analysis using D2 distances shows Sahelian and Sudanian populations forming two separate clusters, with the exception of the Dogon . In the male sex, nose width and sitting height account for the total multivariate interpopulational variation; nose width alone separates the two zonal groups, again with the Dogon as an exception. The position of the Dogon near to Sudanian populations while living in the Sahelian zone is explained by their migration from the Sudanian zone a few centuries ago. Adaptative genetic response to climate is proposed as a partial explanation of the evidence presented.
The Sahelian and Sudanian zones collectively comprise the bulk of West Africa and as you can see they're not all the same but possess varition, so much for your erroneous core Negrid homeland hypothesis which comprised only one type despite the fact that the fossil record as far as the Mesolithic show the same variation we see today, even in the Saharan zones. Keep on with your wishful thinking because you haven't adduced any evidence to support anything you've said.
The continuity of a more varied population with partly at least Europiform characteristics is mostly outside and North of the main areas.
Quote:
.
The legend of the graph is not visible btw. the Dogon are not fully, but pred. Sudanid, even many very typical examples... But the description of Negroid characteristics is partly really rather generalised like I thought, though its arguable even if the border to generalised archaic forms is fluent.
Denial, I'm not wasting anymore of my time and vast sources educating you. Just stay in denial.
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Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #49 on Feb 5, 2006, 5:58pm »
Quote:
Nonsense, but you can stay in denial all you like, the information from published data that I've been posting prove otherwise and one can look at West Africans today and see the variation
I never said there is no variation, I spoke about that all the time. It depends on the exact region and ethnic group and "just by chance" if you come further North or closer to ethnic groups which seem to have come from further North the Negrid features are not that homogeneous again...
Quote:
Fulanis and Toubous are Negroid, what are you talking about? Its irritating to see how you discretely attempt to confine people to a specific morphology when they obviously are *NOT* limited to a narrow amount of discrete traits.
Thats a question of definition. Sure, most Fulanis are clearly Negroid and the Tubus are Negroid too, but they show deviations which point clearly in a direction and you want see such deviations in other, more typical groups!
Quote:
In one or both sexes, Sahelians have significantly longer lower limbs and forearms, larger hands and ears, a narrower face, and a higher and narrower nose. Sexual dimorphism of the shoulder-hip-width proportions is lower in the Sahelians , resulting from the Sahelian males, but not females, having wider hips, whereas Sahelians of both sexes have narrower shoulders.
Multivariate analysis using D2 distances shows Sahelian and Sudanian populations forming two separate clusters, with the exception of the Dogon . In the male sex, nose width and sitting height account for the total multivariate interpopulational variation; nose width alone separates the two zonal groups, again with the Dogon as an exception. The position of the Dogon near to Sudanian populations while living in the Sahelian zone is explained by their migration from the Sudanian zone a few centuries ago. Adaptative genetic response to climate is proposed as a partial explanation of the evidence presented.
True, they are more leptomorphic and of a less extreme sex-type, both and the other features lead clearly away from Negrids.
Thats exactly what I said, Dogons came mostly from the core and are Sudanid, fully Negrid and even this text speaks about "partical explanation" if its about the climatic influence. The difference between what you mean and I'm speaking about is partly time. Those groups which lived there for thousands and thousands of years without ever being fully developed Negrids you call just "variation", though they are borderline and just Negroid, but of a different type and the difference to Negrids in the narrower sense (Sudanids, f.e. majority of Dogon) is clear!
Quote:
Denial, I'm not wasting anymore of my time and vast sources educating you. Just stay in denial.
Thank you for the sources, believe me I'm open minded, but again, read the text yourself, my answer and tell me where you see the contradiction to my thesis.
They speak about "Sudanian populations" (clearly an equivalent to Sudanid in my terminology) and point out the major difference to Tubus (!) and the reasons are not fully explained. In every case the Tubus are outside of the Negrid usual variation as are some other West Africans, the typical Negrid form is Sudanid and (Northern) Palaenegrid in Negroid West Africa, the deviations are rests of former not fully Negroid variation (Tubu) or intrusions (Tuareg).
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #50 on Feb 5, 2006, 6:04pm »
Sudanians are Sahelians are well within the Negrid range, according to Hiernaux, thats what you fail to realize in your flawed reasoning about "half evolved Negrids", but keep on staying in denial. I have a game to watch, so bye!
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Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #51 on Feb 5, 2006, 6:07pm »
Quote:
Sudanians are Sahelians are well within the Negrid range, according to Hiernaux, thats what you fail to realize in your flawed reasoning about "half evolved Negrids", but keep on staying in denial. I have a game to watch, so bye!
Point is Dogons are in the Sudanid type range and can be clearly distinguished from Tubus and thats proven in this text. So this text proves that v. Eickstedts description fits real patterns and differences between African populations.
Tubus dont exhibit the Negrid morphology to the same extend and are therefore just in the wider Negroid range.
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #52 on Feb 6, 2006, 10:38am »
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Sudanians are Sahelians are well within the Negrid range, according to Hiernaux, thats what you fail to realize in your flawed reasoning about "half evolved Negrids", but keep on staying in denial. I have a game to watch, so bye!
Point is Dogons are in the Sudanid type range and can be clearly distinguished from Tubus and thats proven in this text. So this text proves that v. Eickstedts description fits real patterns and differences between African populations.
Tubus dont exhibit the Negrid morphology to the same extend and are therefore just in the wider Negroid range.
No, sorry, this does *NOT* prove your point, Hiernaux doesn't believe in a core Negrid[read true Negro] race, you're out of your mind. I've posted tons of evidence to back up what I said and you have posted nothing to back anything you have said, thats the crux of the matter. You've changed your position numerous times in this thread and even postulated erroneous theories of "half-evolved" Negrids, no anthropologist believes in that insane suggestion. Fact remains variation existed in the Mesolithic and continues till this day.
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Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #53 on Feb 6, 2006, 11:27am »
Quote:
I've posted tons of evidence to back up what I said and you have posted nothing to back anything you have said, thats the crux of the matter. You've changed your position numerous times in this thread and even postulated erroneous theories of "half-evolved" Negrids, no anthropologist believes in that insane suggestion. Fact remains variation existed in the Mesolithic and continues till this day.
Sure, but not for the Negrid core to the same extent. Simple point: Who is closer to Sudanid Dogons, though they live side by side, Babaras or Tubus? Even further way, who is closer by racial specialisation Sudanids to Tubus or the former to East African Kafrids? Again you see the similarity and relations inside the Negrid spectrum in the narrower sense and the wider variation on its fringes and in areas with non-Negrid intrusions.
Bambara (rather Sudanid):
Mocambique (Kafrid/Bantuid):
Congolese (Palanegrid, compare breadth of the head and face):
And now a Tubu: Sure, wider Negroid range with Europiform tendencies, but how you say it, variation would imply to me that this is the case without strong regional differences and core regions, but thats not the case. Its clear who is Negrid in the narrower sense and shows the typical specialisation and morphology - both bones and soft parts.
Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #54 on Feb 6, 2006, 11:45am »
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Quote:
I've posted tons of evidence to back up what I said and you have posted nothing to back anything you have said, thats the crux of the matter. You've changed your position numerous times in this thread and even postulated erroneous theories of "half-evolved" Negrids, no anthropologist believes in that insane suggestion. Fact remains variation existed in the Mesolithic and continues till this day.
Sure, but not for the Negrid core to the same extent. Simple point: Who is closer to Sudanid Dogons, though they live side by side, Babaras or Tubus? Even further way, who is closer by racial specialisation Sudanids to Tubus or the former to East African Kafrids? Again you see the similarity and relations inside the Negrid spectrum in the narrower sense and the wider variation on its fringes and in areas with non-Negrid intrusions.
Bambara (rather Sudanid):
Mocambique (Kafrid/Bantuid):
Congolese (Palanegrid, compare breadth of the head and face):
And now a Tubu: Sure, wider Negroid range with Europiform tendencies, but how you say it, variation would imply to me that this is the case without strong regional differences and core regions, but thats not the case. Its clear who is Negrid in the narrower sense and shows the typical specialisation and morphology - both bones and soft parts.
I'm not getting into a picture spamming war, thats meaningless and proves nothing because we can go on and on.
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Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #55 on Feb 6, 2006, 11:55am »
Quote:
I'm not getting into a picture spamming war, thats meaningless and proves nothing because we can go on and on.
Ok, but all studies you can post which have measured important traits will show that f.e. Sudanids and Kafrids are closer to each other than both to groups which live close to them. The reason is the Negrid expansion I spoke about and as I said, the variation you claim is at the fringes or comes from intrusions mostly, if its not about rests of generalised archaic forms (australiform traits in Eastern Africa f.e., Khoisanid traits etc.) But the typical Negrid morphology was spread from a centre, close to the Bantu centre most likely, such a homogenity can't be the result of multi-centric evolution over such a wide area, especially since this extreme specialisation wouldnt really be necessary for some areas...
P.S.: This images are representativ for a general typological variation inside the Negrids in the narrower sense, therefore its not necessary to spam. This is, together with Nilotids, the basic Negrid typological variation.
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Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #56 on Feb 8, 2006, 5:43pm »
Quote:
Agrippa, what is the true "Europoid"/"Caucasoid" type?
There are just more or less extreme forms of Europid specialisation, but there is a fix set of features. F.e. a Europid with flat-broad (world standard) nose, wide set eyes, prognathy and a weak chin can be only a mutant or a mixed or racially otherwise deviating individual.
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Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #57 on Feb 8, 2006, 6:02pm »
Quote:
You are avoiding the question. What is the typical "Europoid" type.
The best representatives for a classic Europid is Nordid (most authors) or Dinaroid, depending on source.
Wrote about that in an older thread.
The most typical Mongolid is Tungid, the most typical Negrid Sudanid btw.
Christian Vogel about the typical Europid - standard-average, descriptive form (rough translation, only the part about head and face, there are other features like physique, hairiness and pigmentation): Head and face: Braincase mesocephalic, forehead straight to slighlty receding, region above the eyes especially in very masculine individuals pronounced, facial relief strongly moulded, very prominent high-narrow nose, nasal bridge straight or wavy to convex, nasal root relatively high, nasal tip mostly narrow, ala of the nose flat vaulted, nasal opening narrow, jaws orthognathic, chin prominent, lips relatively narrow, eyes deep set in the eye holes.
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Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #58 on Feb 8, 2006, 6:09pm »
Quote:
Well, the "Nordid" is a mix of Upper Paleolithic "Cro-Magnon" types with one or more types of Medi./ME types. That shouldn't be the typical/core type following your own definition.
I mean you define everything else in terms of extremes, why not have the same standard for your region of the world?
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Re: Who were the latter Pleistocene eastern Africa « Reply #59 on Feb 8, 2006, 6:48pm »
Quote:
What does that change?
You pick for yourself an ideal... not that extreme... while defining other "races" in the extreme.
Thats not my definition alone, I have it from some of the best physical anthropologists.
However, to explain it for you: What are major races at all? They are adaptations to climatic conditions on a large scale - what racial types (subraces) arent always.
Negrids = tropical zone and heat Europid = temperate zone Mongolids = cold and arctic zone
Originally, so for Mongolids the type most cold adapted is more typical than the less extreme Sinid which is already "less Mongolid".
Sudanids show morphologically the clearest Negroid combination without the generalised primitive traits f.e. Palaenegrids have. Or would you say Palaenegrids are more typical?
Europids are made for a wide range of climatic zones, not so much "a core race" specialised to an extreme climate. Features which are pronounced and distinguish as specialisation on their own are things like narrow nose, orthognathy, strong facial relief, depigmentation etc. = what I said
Both Negrids and Mongolids had formerly a much narrower distribution when the typical features evolved, that was never true for Europids to the same extend. F.e. if Southern Mongolids would have always lived in SEA, they wouldnt look like that, that was the result of Sinoid expansion. Same for Negrids, if Kafrids/Bantuids would have lived always in South Africa, they would have never evolved that way. The same can't be proven for Europe, but even if, their adaptation to the temperate climate is crucial.
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